22:04:44 <cait> #startmeeting Developer IRC meeting 24 June 2015 - part 2
22:04:44 <huginn`> Meeting started Wed Jun 24 22:04:44 2015 UTC.  The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:04:44 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
22:04:44 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'developer_irc_meeting_24_june_2015___part_2'
22:04:48 <cait> #topic Introductions
22:04:49 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
22:04:53 <cait> please introduce yourself with #info
22:05:12 <indradg> #info Indranil Das Gupta
22:05:13 <drojf> #info Mirko Tietgen, one eye still open
22:05:18 <rangi> sorry, got a couple of issues to deal with my apologies
22:05:21 <eythian_> #info Robin Sheat, Catalyst IT, Wellington
22:05:30 <rangi> dont add any more frameworks while im away
22:05:34 <drojf> lol
22:05:40 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ Germany
22:06:08 <cait> ok, moving on :)
22:06:09 <wnickc> #info Nick Clemens, VOKAL Consortium, Vermont
22:06:14 <cait> pauses
22:06:31 <cait> today's agenda is:
22:06:34 <cait> #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_24_June_2015
22:06:40 <cait> let's move on
22:06:51 <cait> #topic RM 3.22 comments
22:06:55 <cait> tcohen isn't here :)
22:07:05 <cait> he complained that we keep him pretty busy pushing things
22:07:08 <mtj> # info Mason James, NZ
22:07:13 <cait> that's what i remember ;)
22:07:57 <cait> he also pointed out the good work on the security releases
22:08:24 <cait> he is trying to get through the bigger ones, but they take a bit longer
22:08:35 <cait> #info the RM considers 'normal' for patches on the PQA list to stay there for more than 2 weeks, if you think something needs to be pushed faster, please contact the RM personally
22:09:00 <cait> nengard has been working on the help files updates and is mostly done - patches should go into master and 3.20
22:09:11 <cait> anything else?
22:10:05 <cait> i am going to move on
22:10:13 <cait> #topic RESTful API implementation
22:10:18 <cait> things got a bit wild there
22:10:41 <cait> #link http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=13920
22:10:42 <huginn`> 04Bug 13920: new feature, P5 - low, ---, julian.maurice, Needs Signoff , API authentication system - proposal
22:10:51 <cait> #link http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=13799
22:10:52 <huginn`> 04Bug 13799: new feature, P5 - low, ---, julian.maurice, Needs Signoff , Add base for building RESTful API
22:11:13 <cait> kivilahtio_: wrote up some comments about the first meeting on the rfc page
22:11:19 <cait> #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/New_REST_API_RFC
22:11:35 <cait> does anyone talk about something specifically?
22:11:36 <mtj> awesome info ^
22:12:53 <cait> ok, one of the points discussed was the inclusion of the Swagger UI in the base patch
22:12:54 <bag> #info brendan gallagher bywater
22:13:07 <mtj> "Swagger UI After a heated debate in the IRC meeting, we decided to let go of Swagger UI as a part of the Koha git history, and instead move it to a new bug which helps people deploy API inspectors, other than just Swagger UI."
22:13:38 <cait> yeah, i'd like to suggest a wiki page instead linked to bugs
22:14:06 <cait> bugzilla can get a bit complicated for documenting setup steps quite quickly
22:14:24 <cait> but generally moving it out of the patch seems like a good idea
22:14:24 <mtj> yes, indeed
22:15:00 <cait> another thing discussed was the way of documenting
22:15:18 <cait> i thik the conclusion was that the documentation is in the code itself - in the swagger specs
22:15:29 <mtj> Olli mentioned using 'redmine' for documenting, in last meeting
22:15:44 <cait> redmine is a full scale project management / bug tracking system
22:15:53 <cait> someone would have to set up and maintain it
22:16:02 <mtj> aah, sounds heavy
22:16:05 <eythian_> Yeah, discouraging the use of 50 different things that all do a similar job would be good.
22:16:06 <cait> we are using it at work, but I am not sure it gives us something that bugzilla doesn't have
22:16:39 <mtj> trello could be a good tool, for that?
22:16:50 <eythian_> mtj: it's proprietary, remember.
22:16:55 <cait> there are lots of good tools
22:17:00 <rangi> s/trello/taiga|libreboard/
22:17:08 <mtj> aah, i didnt know eythian_
22:17:23 <cait> but people need to use them :)
22:17:26 <rangi> the thing to remember is that we have a really active .. one of the more active opensource projects in the world
22:17:35 <rangi> with one of the lowest barriers to becoming a dev
22:17:39 <eythian_> cait: no they don't
22:17:44 <rangi> what we have now works really well
22:17:53 <eythian_> wizzyrea was going to have a go at setting up taiga, but has probably been too busy.
22:17:54 <rangi> improving it is always good
22:18:12 <rangi> but i dont think we want to forget the workflow we have no actually works really well
22:18:17 <rangi> now even
22:18:24 <cait> yep
22:18:35 <cait> and having something very similar than bugzilla parallel... sounds a bit nightmarish
22:18:46 <rangi> i can see having something for the devs to use
22:18:50 <mtj> sorry, i took the convo a bit offtrack there ^
22:18:51 <cait> i think they agreed to have the rfc api wiki page updated for now
22:18:56 <rangi> to coordinate big tasks
22:19:10 <rangi> but i dont think you want to get people having to report things in 2 places etc
22:19:17 * rangi goes back to doing translation updates
22:19:48 <cait> #idea think about ways for devs to coordinate big tasks better
22:20:11 <cait> aonther longer discussion was had about the topic authentication
22:20:19 <cait> it seems we have 2 implementations right now
22:20:28 <cait> i gota bit lost there, so recommend reading the logs for more detailled information
22:20:37 <cait> one thing that was pointed out was that it should suppord our current cookie
22:20:40 <eythian_> is there a link to the previous meeting logs anywhere?
22:20:43 <cait> so we can use the api inside of koha i think
22:20:55 <cait> i will put one on the agenda after th emeeting
22:21:00 <cait> but of curse everything is in the logs
22:21:33 <cait> #info links to logs: http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/2015-06-24#i_1693798
22:21:50 <eythian_> ta
22:22:25 <cait> i hope the wiki page gets cleaned up a little - please put questions and notes there too!
22:22:52 <cait> i also requested that the api has to be easy to setup and test
22:22:56 <mtj> does mojo have  a perl 5.20 requirement?
22:23:11 <cait> to avoid the problems we have for example with getting sip patches integrated - the harder it is to use, the harder it is to get in
22:23:30 <cait> mtj: I don't know - eythian maybe?
22:24:10 <eythian_> not sure
22:24:31 <mtj> ahh.. ' which are currently 5.20.x and 5.18.x. '
22:24:32 <cait> mtj: coudl you put that on the wiki maybe?
22:24:46 <eythian_> mtj: what are you quoting there?
22:24:59 <mtj> http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/FAQ#Which-versions-of-Perl-are-supported-by-Mojolicious
22:25:08 <eythian_> we currently announce that we support poerl 5.10+, so mojo would be quite a shift.
22:25:25 <cait> ok, what can i put in the mintues?
22:25:53 <cait> #info Question: what are the perl requirements of mojolicious?
22:26:02 <eythian_> I think deciding if we're OK bumping the minimum supported version needs to be a discussion (another time.)
22:26:09 <cait> #link http://mojolicio.us/perldoc/Mojolicious/Guides/FAQ#Which-versions-of-Perl-are-supported-by-Mojolicious
22:26:32 <cait> i think maybe soon - because we'd need to switch soon if we don't agree
22:26:57 <rangi> i still need to be convinced that we actually gain anything by introducing mojo
22:27:08 <rangi> and dont give me its easier for developers .. i dont really care about that
22:27:15 <cait> i wasn't going to ;)
22:27:24 <rangi> if it makes koha harder for users to install, for no gain to them
22:27:27 <rangi> then meh
22:27:34 <cait> i think the impression of most is now we agreed on it - which could make it a bit difficult to change direction now
22:27:49 <rangi> who's this we :-)
22:28:02 <cait> i am just trying to summarize
22:28:42 <eythian_> (also, the discussion about mojo causing breaking changes a lot concerns me, we must be able to support multiple versions.)
22:28:53 <mtj> the flip is.. why not bump the minimum perl version?
22:28:56 <cait> i think those are all good points
22:29:03 <cait> as i said - it hink the easier we make it
22:29:09 <cait> to test and use
22:29:20 <cait> the better
22:29:20 <wahanui> it has been said that the better is "take cover." :)
22:29:45 <cait> i also think we need to make sure that we keep things tightly locked up
22:29:51 <cait> so authentication working well is a big point for me
22:30:58 <eythian_> I'm of the opinion that auth needs to be redesigned from the ground up, but that's a big Job™
22:31:03 <mtj> hmm,  i see squeeze has perl 5.10, and wheezy perl 5.14 - so thats a problem :/
22:31:22 <cait> mtj, eythian: could you bring that up on wiki/mailing list/bugzilla?
22:31:43 <mtj> yep, will do cait
22:31:59 <mtj> good news... jessie has perl 5.20
22:32:08 <eythian_> fwiw, backporting the mojo module to wheezy didn't lead to tests failing, so that's hopeful.
22:32:44 <mtj> so, koha with mojo/swagger would only run on debian.8?
22:32:51 <rangi> 14.04 is april 2019
22:32:56 <cait> #action mtj to bring perl version question to the mailing list
22:33:33 <cait> something else about the api we should think of?
22:33:46 <rangi> but yeah, even without the perl issue, wtf does mojo even give us
22:34:00 <rangi> thats what no one has explained to me yet
22:34:17 <rangi> i feel like its moose all over again
22:34:25 <cait> i thnk the main excitement seems to be the swagger plugin for it
22:34:34 <mtj> hum, i assumed swagger needed mojo.. but no?
22:34:39 <cait> i think so
22:34:59 <cait> but... the technical bits are hard for me here - so please check what i say :)
22:35:40 <eythian_> no, aiui they're two different things that can be connected.
22:36:04 <cait> ok
22:36:33 <mtj> https://metacpan.org/pod/Swagger2
22:37:16 <mtj> hmm, it does look like the mojo stuff is optional?
22:37:17 <rangi> yes thats one implementation of swagger for perl
22:37:18 <mtj> "This distribution comes with a Mojolicious plugin, Mojolicious::Plugin::Swagger2, which can set up routes and perform input and output validation."
22:37:19 <cait> do you want me to add somethong to the minutes?
22:37:26 <rangi> thats not swagger tho
22:37:39 <rangi> thats a mojolicious implementation of swagger
22:38:06 <mtj> yep, understood
22:39:02 <cait> #info Question: what do we gain by using Mojolicious - are there other ways we could make use of Swagger?
22:39:21 <cait> anything else i can add?
22:39:52 <mtj> #info Question: can swagger be used without mojo?
22:40:06 <cait> does it take infos rom non-chairs?
22:40:11 <cait> i am never sure if i need to repeat
22:40:34 <mtj> i think yes cait
22:41:06 <cait> #info Question: can swagger be used without mojo?
22:41:11 <cait> just to make sure :)
22:41:14 <cait> ok, ready to move on?
22:42:34 <cait> #topic Koha Naming standards
22:42:48 <cait> where is a new wiki page where we gathered the terms used in the gui
22:42:58 <cait> http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Terminology
22:43:17 <cait> the question came up naming the new routes but also how to nam modules in the new namespace
22:43:27 <cait> patron / borrower / member / user
22:43:32 <cait> there is a lot of variation
22:43:47 <eythian_> but all the UIs I see use "reserve" and "member" and so on :)
22:43:58 <cait> we are kind of standardized in the gui right now
22:44:07 <cait> eythian which do you mean?
22:44:16 <eythian_> all of them
22:44:18 <cait> ah en_nz?
22:44:19 <eythian_> all the GUIs
22:44:26 <eythian_> well yeah, the standard language
22:44:35 <cait> well yes... there is a translation issue there
22:44:43 <cait> but i'd vote for at least having consistency - also makes translating easier
22:44:53 <cait> and maybe not use all options in naming stuff :)
22:45:02 <eythian_> (that said, as much as patron is an old-timey, out-of-date sounding word, consistency is probably a better benefit no matter if it does sound weird.)
22:45:45 <rangi> im still puzzled how we got to en_NZ not being the standard seeings it started here ... but since we are standardising (or standardizing) on americanese patron is the word we should use
22:46:01 <cait> i think that predated my involvement on koha :)
22:46:06 <cait> it was all very patron when is tarted
22:46:14 <rangi> another thing you can blame on liblime actually
22:46:19 <cait> probably
22:46:20 <wahanui> somebody said probably was not, but i do not know another way
22:46:35 <cait> from a translation point of view - consistency is nice
22:46:40 <eythian_> we probably have more users not using en_US though, if you count India :)
22:46:42 <cait> because it helps to settle on the same term in the translations as well
22:47:23 <eythian_> I say we silently edit it to say that all words should use real English ;)
22:47:35 <cait> just do while i am on vacation please :)
22:47:50 <cait> so let's get some quick opinion thing
22:48:15 <cait> are we in favour of using the gui terminology (en_US) on the coding side of things as well (thinking namespaces and the like)?
22:48:45 <eythian_> en_SIMPLE, you mean? ;)
22:49:06 <cait> #chair eythian
22:49:06 <huginn`> Current chairs: cait eythian
22:49:15 <cait> there, you get to help now with this meeting
22:49:18 <rangi> yeah makes sense to match the code
22:49:37 <cait> +1 from me (consistency helps generally)
22:49:39 <eythian_> http://i.imgur.com/kn488mY.jpg <-- that's the image I was thinking of
22:49:42 <rangi> however please for the love of toasted cheesus .. don't go refactoring code
22:49:51 <rangi> just to align the terminology
22:49:54 <cait> i think it was moslty a queston of the new namespace for now :)
22:50:04 <rangi> new is ok
22:50:16 <eythian_> yeah, consistency is good
22:50:43 <cait> #agreed consistency is good - meeting participants in favour of aligning new code terminology with the gui terminology
22:50:50 <cait> hope ig ot that about right :)
22:50:51 <cait> ok, moving on?
22:51:04 <mtj> +1
22:51:09 <cait> #topic Big stuff we are working on
22:51:18 <cait> i think eveyone wants to know... eythian - elastic search?
22:52:16 <eythian_> it's coming along. I discovered a whole new search API the other day (yay!), implemented support for it and am now refactoring the bits that refer to it.
22:52:39 <cait> oh what is it?
22:52:50 <eythian_> C4::Search::SimpleSearch, from memory.
22:53:22 <eythian_> I'm hoping that when this is done, that'll be all the searching in the whole system using ES.
22:53:31 <eythian_> which means it'll be ready for production ;)
22:53:34 <eythian_> (not really)
22:53:55 <cait> ah another one in Koha
22:54:01 <eythian_> yeah
22:54:12 <eythian_> but after that is all the bitsy things like making sure indexing works properly, and so forth.
22:54:16 <mtj> amazing stuff eythian_ ^
22:54:26 <eythian_> i.e. when you update a record, it's reindexed
22:54:37 <cait> that would be good yes :)
22:54:58 <cait> we have great difficulties with the facets... i am really hoping your code will make things better
22:55:06 <eythian_> and it should all work with zebra too, just by flicking the switch
22:55:17 <eythian_> cait: well, it uses ES to generate the facets, so that's hopefully better
22:55:25 <cait> mostly people are really confused we don't take into account the whole result set - displaying the important facets... and all as an option etc.
22:55:42 <eythian_> this one does take into account all the result set, I think.
22:55:53 <eythian_> there are a few bugs there, like the "more" link doesn't work.
22:55:53 <cait> like 'why do more itemtypes turn up when i limit the search, but haven't been shown initially'
22:56:15 <eythian_> yeah
22:56:23 <cait> I'd love to see those things gone from my complaints list :)
22:56:28 <eythian_> that probably shouldn't happen in this case, at least nearly so much.
22:56:42 <cait> eythian - will you send an email to the list again when we can start testing more?
22:56:51 <eythian_> I'm not sure how far ES looks into the data.
22:57:03 <eythian_> sure.
22:57:16 <eythian_> I'll finish off this API stuff and then update my test server.
22:57:25 <cait> #action eythian to send an email to the list to call for testing when ready
22:57:34 <cait> hm should have included elastic search there...
22:57:46 <cait> smething else big?
22:57:53 <cait> or something you want to announce/mention?
22:58:10 <eythian_> not me :)
22:58:30 <cait> #info ElasticSearch is coming along
22:58:39 <cait> #topic GBSD
22:59:01 <cait> we talked about having another gbsd - maybe coupled with a qa sprint
22:59:10 <cait> but they don't seem to have a lot of impact
22:59:18 <cait> not more people actually testing etc
22:59:29 <cait> the idea was to gather some ideas what we could do to revive them
23:00:59 <cait> no ideas?
23:01:30 <eythian_> if it's any consolation, the last debian-perl equivalent got forgotten about even by the organiser :)
23:01:35 <cait> #info Needed: ideas on how to make gbsds more fun and more attractive
23:01:45 <cait> not really heh
23:02:17 <mtj> cait:  gbsd with dubstep
23:03:18 <eythian_> nobody likes dubstep, mtj ;)
23:03:24 <mtj> other than that, i dont have any great ideas on GBSD
23:03:45 <cait> #topic specific bugs that need feedback
23:03:51 <cait> i put bug 7710 there
23:03:52 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7710 new feature, P5 - low, ---, alex.arnaud, In Discussion , multiple holds per title
23:03:55 <cait> we had some discussion how it should behave
23:03:59 <cait> and where the configuration should happen
23:04:21 <cait> for example: should we allow record level holds in combination with item level holds
23:04:32 <mtj> re: gbsd - perhaps we start working towards a definite testing setup, like kohadevbox?
23:04:41 <cait> i'd like to encourage people to add a note with thir ideas on the bug report
23:05:31 <cait> maybe we ould runa kohadevbox tutorial on a gbsd
23:05:36 <cait> to make it easier to get started?
23:05:52 <mtj> yeah, thats what i mean cait :)
23:06:18 <cait> #info Looking for opinions on bug 7710 - confiuration and behavoiur of multiple holds per title
23:06:28 <cait> #idea run a kohadevbox tutorial on gbsd
23:06:38 <eythian_> that's a good idea, I think
23:06:43 <cait> i'd attend :)
23:06:56 <mtj> a gbsd newbie guide, from installing kohadevbox to signing-off a patch
23:07:03 <cait> i am too tired to look up the actions form last meeting
23:07:09 <cait> i am fully trusting people to have done their part
23:07:29 <cait> #idea gbsd newbie guide - from installing kohadevbox to sign-off
23:07:57 <cait> ok, i'd like to moveon :)
23:08:02 <cait> #topic Set time of next meeting
23:08:21 <cait> #action tcohen to set date and time for next meeting - a shift to 14 UTC was suggested
23:08:27 <cait> last chance?
23:08:28 <cait> :)
23:08:31 <mtj> +1
23:08:50 <cait> #endmeeting