10:00:52 #startmeeting General IRC Meeting 8 July 2015 10:00:52 Meeting started Wed Jul 8 10:00:52 2015 UTC. The chair is cait1. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 10:00:52 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 10:00:52 The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_8_july_2015' 10:00:57 #topic Introductions 10:00:58 #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient 10:01:11 Please introduce your self with #info, following wahanui's example 10:01:22 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_8_July_2015 10:01:36 #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ Germany 10:01:37 fist timer here 10:01:39 #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 10:01:47 welcome Jerwyn 10:02:02 #info Eugene Espinoza Rome 10:02:08 welcome :) the #info will make your name show up in the list of attendees in the meeting logs 10:02:11 hello Brooke 10:02:25 #info David Nind, Wellington, New Zealand 10:02:46 #info Jonathan Druart 10:02:49 #info Mirko Tietgen, Berlin, Germany 10:02:56 #info Jerwyn Fernandez, Manila, Philippines 10:03:22 i will wait a little longer 10:05:11 ok, let's moveon 10:05:15 #topic Announcements 10:05:50 #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 10:05:51 #info Kyle Hall, ByWater Solutions 10:05:54 i knew it! heh 10:06:12 there is always someone just after changing the topic :) 10:06:25 internet is crazy, brb 10:06:58 any announcements? 10:07:02 yep 10:07:20 If anyone's in the DC/Baltimore area mid August, there's a Code4Lib meetup 10:07:45 link? 10:08:39 not terribly useful but 10:08:43 #link http://wiki.code4lib.org/MDC 10:08:56 ok, let's move to the next topic 10:09:03 #topic Update on releases 10:09:53 i think tcohen is not here yet - quite early in argentina 10:09:56 any of the RMaints? 10:10:43 could be a quick meeting :) 10:10:51 afaikt everything seems to be on track 10:11:12 we had a security release 10:12:13 some follow-up patches fixing some side effects of the security fixes will be in hte next releases i think 10:12:16 I think 3.18.x is still buggy: not possible to add/update a vendor 10:12:24 yep 10:12:39 there is also a proble with item search i think, but the patches are ready 10:13:06 thx Joubu 10:13:28 ok,moving on 10:13:34 #topic KohaCon15 10:14:13 #link http://koha-community.org/kohacon/kohacon15/ 10:14:24 i think today there is noone here from Nigeria 10:14:31 any questions or comments you want to have show up in the logs? 10:14:50 3.18 - 3.20 inventory is bug 10:15:42 #topic KohaCon16 10:16:26 http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 10:16:31 People from Greece have not added or not linked a detailed proposal. 10:16:33 show Greece 10:16:49 #info we got 2 bids right now, one from Aristotle Universtiy in Greece and another from National Library of the Philippines 10:17:00 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 10:17:05 thx Jerwyn 10:17:11 Anyone here from Aristotle University? 10:17:26 i don't think so - but votes only open in september 10:17:51 but votes are not before september, is what i meant 10:18:02 #info Voting will take place in September 10:18:23 maybe we could schedule something before in an irc meeting for people with questions? 10:18:23 I'm glad we have 2 bids from places we've not yet been :) 10:18:24 At some point a reminder may be needed for Aristotle University in case they are all on holiday. 10:18:51 if ever can we change the venue for the National Library Kohacon2016? 10:19:01 Jerwyn: i think you can still edit the wiki 10:19:04 the temporary demise of their banking system is prolly a bit more pressing than a KohaCon bid at present... 10:19:12 maybe add a note that it changes to be more visible 10:19:34 * thd has not been following the news closely :) 10:20:09 Jerwyn: do you want me to put a note in then minutes? what's the new location? 10:20:12 #info we're having a hard time contacting the national libeary. They seemed are busy with transferring. But we're hoping national library of phils. Cooperates 10:20:29 got that cait they are renovating the building dont know when they will finish it. 10:20:58 you can also say it might change due to renovations or something... no problem changing the bids before the voting i think 10:21:26 cait have to check with the National Library Staff when they will finish the renovation. 10:21:27 #info noted cait 10:21:36 #info The venue in the Philippines bid might change due to renovations of the building 10:22:14 #but it will still be in the national capital 10:22:15 thanks cait 10:22:16 anything else? 10:22:20 Or within the vicinity 10:22:51 #info but it will still be in the national.capital. or within the vicinity 10:23:00 ok :) 10:23:09 moving on then :) 10:23:18 #topic Next steps in Fundraising 10:24:14 i think first we need to take a look at the bylaws / TOR 10:24:30 is someone from the fundraising committee here? 10:25:05 #info bylaws = Terms of Reference 10:25:12 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Fundraising 10:25:56 any comments? 10:26:15 I will state that I hope in future we reach out to Mozilla or similar to get ideas for our governance rather than reinventing the wheel 10:26:31 if there is nobody here, will we postpone it to the next meeting? 10:26:50 i first want to check if htere are open questions 10:27:09 i will leave it up to the meeting if we have a vote, if people are comfortable we can, if there is still need for discussion, we might postpone 10:27:29 I think we should go ahead and vote if nobody has any questions 10:27:34 Seems okay to me 10:27:51 While I agree somewhat with Brooke, borrowing complete documents from allied communities works somewhat less well than using the GPL in common. 10:27:58 I've read through it and it seems pretty straight forward to me 10:28:13 It's missing a lot of safeguards. 10:28:29 Brooke: safeguards? 10:28:34 I also hope that geography and diversity will be a bit of a bigger factor next yearish 10:29:06 i think it's hard to write that up - anyone can candidate 10:29:32 #info Indranil Das Gupta 10:29:43 Brooke: what safeguards would be helpful apart from the issue of encouraging diversity? 10:30:00 cait1: is correct, these are simply the people who volunteered for the job 10:32:16 Brooke? 10:32:17 I'M TAKING THE PISS OUT OF 'EM. or a ratbag. 10:32:17 sorry my wifi hates me 10:32:22 Brook, can you be more specific? 10:32:31 Brooke: ^ 10:32:52 sorry I'm having a discussion on the side. 10:33:19 Yes, specifically I'm worried that our bylaws are not strong enough on conflicts of interest, and I would like to see that bit flushed out much more. 10:33:36 Brooke: in what way? 10:33:38 I am not saying don't vote, I'm just saying I hope that people take the process as one of continuous improvement. 10:34:02 Brooke: absolutely, continuous improvement is what we're all about ; ) 10:34:45 If the vote is delayed currently then there should be further opportunity to propose changes before first use. 10:34:46 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Fundraising#Article_3:_Conflicts_of_Interest 10:35:47 #idea improve paragraph on 'conflict of interest' 10:35:58 If there are no questions, shall we vote then? 10:36:12 first i'd like to ask: is there anyone here opposed to voting today? 10:36:19 There has been over a month already to provide feedback, more time allowed at last general meeting.. 10:36:40 i am preparing the vote statement now, giving you b it more time 10:36:45 always need a bit to get that right 10:37:08 dumb question - membership means a member of the fundraising committee? 10:37:12 ... and it needs to be phrased as a question 10:37:22 i'd say so 10:37:42 indradg: that is correct 10:37:43 yep 10:37:43 Committee members shall be elected via vote in a Koha General Meeting 10:37:57 ok 10:38:14 can someone help me phrase that vote as a question that makes sense? :) 10:38:42 how about "Do we approve the International Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Terms of Reference?" 10:39:38 cait1: the signatories were already approved in a previous vote, correct? 10:39:44 not quie 10:39:49 with one exception 10:39:57 paul_p added his name after the initial election 10:40:02 ok, let's cast a bigger net 10:40:05 so he has not been elected 10:40:11 I move that we vote on the international koha fund raising committee term of reference 10:40:26 schnydszch working on it, one more moment please 10:40:46 "Do we approve the Fundraising Commitee and International Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Terms of Reference?" 10:40:54 #vote Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Bylaws/Terms of Reference as stated on the wiki today. Do you approve? (yes,no) 10:40:57 my bad.. 10:40:59 hm 10:41:02 that wasn't it 10:41:18 I have a question. 10:41:18 #vote Do you approve of the Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Bylaws/Terms of Reference as stated on the wiki today? 10:41:21 yes? 10:41:29 and please help me get the vote started someone... 10:41:34 #vote yes 10:41:37 #vote yes 10:41:38 #vote yes 10:41:48 sorry, it's not started correctly yet 10:41:49 i will have it now 10:42:04 thd: your question? 10:42:09 How would the conflict of interest clause not affect most members thus preventing a quarum? 10:42:18 yeah, i think that's a problem :) 10:42:25 #startvote Do you approve of the Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Bylaws/Terms of Reference as stated on the wiki today? 10:42:25 Begin voting on: Do you approve of the Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Bylaws/Terms of Reference as stated on the wiki today? Valid vote options are Yes, No. 10:42:25 Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 10:42:32 ok, now please bote 10:42:36 vote 10:42:39 #vote yes 10:42:44 no 10:42:46 #vote yes 10:42:49 #vote yes 10:42:52 #vote no 10:42:55 #vote yes 10:43:41 #vote yes 10:45:00 #vote abstain 10:45:07 #vote abstain 10:45:40 i am giving this a bit longer to make sure everyone has voted 10:46:28 grr 10:46:33 could someone look for the link to the email thread about the support vendor listing meanwhile? 10:46:38 drojf: vote is still open 10:46:50 let me check the log what we are voring on :) 10:47:26 #vote yes 10:47:27 #vote abstain 10:47:51 the abstains are not counted by the bot, but will note them in the minutes 10:47:52 cait1: thanks for waiting btw :) 10:47:58 ending the vote now 10:48:03 #endvote 10:48:03 * mtj waves from his fone 10:48:03 Voted on "Do you approve of the Koha Fund Fundraising Committee Bylaws/Terms of Reference as stated on the wiki today?" Results are 10:48:16 hm no results... 10:48:27 bug? 10:48:28 bug is it stores biblionumber not itemnumber 10:49:14 #agreed. Results of the vote are: yes (6), no (1), abstain (3) 10:49:20 i hope i have counted correctly 10:49:25 please check 10:49:38 khall: i suggest we add voting on paul_p to the next agenda? 10:49:42 cait1: I will double check 10:49:42 he isn't around 10:50:01 and it seems not time criticial 10:50:58 cait1: is there a specific reason, or just that he's not around? 10:51:10 maybe just that it's not been on th eagenda :) 10:51:25 i always feel a bit uncomfortable doing votes that haven't been announced 10:51:32 the figures add up ! 10:51:44 thx davidnind 10:51:46 that's fine by me, like you said, probably not time critical 10:51:53 i will add an action 10:52:34 #action cait to add voting on Paul P for the fundraising committee to the next agenda 10:52:42 ok, moving on? 10:52:47 a general remark: i would like to see people attend the meetings if they want the meeting to vote on things. 10:53:12 i second that... it would be a lot easier with someone involved around to answer questions and comments 10:53:46 let's vote on it! 10:53:48 ; ) 10:53:55 #topic Support vendor listing on the website 10:54:03 does someone have th elink to the email thread? 10:54:16 I want to keep it. It's one of the most frequently asked questions. 10:54:49 I often refer to it too... so I would like to have something like that at least 10:54:55 but i can understand the problems that have been raised 10:54:58 cait1: did you find a link to the mailing list thread? 10:55:01 not yet 10:55:09 still looking.. 10:55:36 got it 10:55:39 #link https://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2015-July/043138.html 10:55:44 https://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2015-July/043138.html 10:55:51 so far we have i think 2 ideas 10:55:52 I'm too slow! 10:56:13 #idea proposal to remove the 'paid support' list 10:56:23 #idea move the 'paid support' list to the wiki 10:56:28 i think "koha has 40+ support companies all over the world" is something of a unique selling point for koha, so i'd like to keep it, in some form 10:56:45 moving it to the wiki sounds good to me 10:56:56 Me too 10:56:57 moving it to the wiki sounds bad to me 10:57:04 it's also more neutral if you can say other vendors can be found there... instead of having to give someone a list or maintain one yourself 10:57:10 if it is all evil now, why would it be ny good in the wiki? 10:57:13 any 10:57:24 i think the idea was to have it less official there 10:57:25 i don't think it is all evil now 10:57:45 I think it should be kept, I think it is clear to me that there is no 'official support providers' 10:57:46 yeah, the wiki would be less official 10:57:47 we have a baby and bathwater problem 10:58:05 nope, we have a tempest in a teapot problem. :P 10:58:16 stop confusing the chair please 10:58:41 I am happy to help maintain if more help is required - the criteria are quite clear, and what it means is quite clear as well 10:58:46 i think it is not my problem if people consider it an official list, why it says otherwise. i don't care. it's not the lists fault 10:58:57 there should be a disclaimer in the wiki that it is not an official list 10:59:06 i think one of the problems raised was possible legal issues removing a company that no longer links back or offers koha services 10:59:07 anyway, I think we basically have some of this information redundantly on the wiki since the Users' pages sometimes have a vendor included in the table for the installation sites. 10:59:08 what i find problematic is all the maintining work and what comes with it. people getting insulted and so on 10:59:11 It seems that moving it to the wiki is the best middle ground idea. I 10:59:12 Is there a claim that the website listings are not being updated quickly enough? 10:59:39 thd: vendors are using the website listing as proof they are an 'official' Koha vendor 10:59:40 #link http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ 10:59:46 and moving it to the wiki would just move the craziness. do we want to have edit wars there because some people can't behave? 10:59:52 and so is the current koha support list page 10:59:53 please note that there is a disclaimer already, but people still seem not to read it... 11:00:08 khall: not just the vendors, even the end users are looking at it as official list 11:00:09 we can't be responsible for folks just not reading. 11:00:12 if it is in the wiki, it is the official list in the wiki, for those who want it to be 11:00:16 From Tomas: 11:00:18 Some places, notably India and others, expect some kind of 11:00:19 official certification for service providers, and people are referring to 11:00:19 being listed on the site as a way to certify their validation as service 11:00:19 providers. 11:00:34 khall: and they will refer to the wiki from then on 11:00:39 The list is being abused, simply put 11:00:40 i don't see any win 11:00:55 khall: I recognise the previous complaint from indradg . 11:01:06 A wiki is specifically editable by anyone, so in my mind it loses a lot of "status" 11:01:07 if we don't want to keep it, i'd say delete it, link to the dashboard, done 11:01:33 khall: what status does the other list have in your mind? 11:01:44 drojf: "other list"? 11:01:50 from our current disclamer: "Inclusion on this directory implies no “official” status whatsoever. Any organization who claims to be an “official” Koha support provider is misrepresenting their relationship to the Koha project." 11:01:56 khall: the list now, as it is. and compare that to others peoples minds that are the problem right now ;) 11:02:07 Drojf. You have a better idea than the wiki? 11:02:26 I've to go to work. Cheers, folks. 11:02:27 mtj link to the dashboard to find companies that contribute 11:02:51 the problem is we all have the "curse of knowledge" in regards to what the list really is 11:02:57 I think that a stronger disclaimer on the website would be better than relying solely upon the wiki. 11:03:00 might lead to a lot of typo fixes heh 11:03:21 davidnind: i read you#d be willing to help out? 11:03:34 actually I registered our company to be put in the list. For some reasons the paid support maintaining body is not updating it. On the contrary I have no problem with it. :) 11:03:40 i really do not see how moving it to a different place will change anything for those that don't understand what the list now is. it will be exactly the same. plus people editing each others entries 11:03:51 I also don't think lines of code is a good single-factor way of saying who's contributing 11:04:04 for example, the entire manual done by nicole 11:04:09 Drojf. Ah OK. Sorry.. Irc is laggy 11:04:11 true 11:04:24 i second the motion khall 11:04:27 and what about when one company hires another? Case in point, the elastic search development 11:04:40 also companies are different size/offer differnt things 11:04:48 we don't have a full time koha dev... but we are still involved 11:04:49 Relying solely on the wiki may lead to the opposite impression of an official endorsement ... namely no presumption that possible wiki spammers have been excluded. 11:04:49 I would be happy to help with requests. I think it is better to keep list as it is - to make sure that at least the criteria for listing are met. 11:04:56 just doens't show in lines of code 11:05:00 plus it ignores all the support everyone gives on the mailing list gratis 11:05:15 you certainly hit it khall. 11:05:35 #action davidnind is volunteering to help out maintaining the current list 11:05:36 Having a dashboard of contributors would also help - this could be linked from the paid support providers list 11:05:47 davidnind: could you maybe get in contact with wizzyrea about this? 11:05:58 cait1: will do 11:06:03 davidnind: vendors wanting to get listed are complying when listing up. Once done, the pages are being changed to reflect an alternate 'reality'. Are we ready to police that? 11:06:04 true. but does that actually change anything in reality? who does the manual, who does support on the list? bywater is certainly in the dashboard, so are others. how many companies are there that exclusively answer questions on the list? 11:06:28 (and do not a single signoff, for example) 11:07:13 davidnind: What would a dashboard be? 11:07:14 and how about those people who asked other people directly and not directly in in Koha community? gratis and that's how other people who have known other Koha people ask and goes into Koha 11:07:15 not saying it is the best possible idea. just trying to think in a direction away from what we have now 11:07:31 As part of maintaining the list, could have a regular review of those listed e.g. annually 11:07:49 #idea a dashboard showing contributions/contributors instead 11:08:05 should be a least quarterly 11:08:44 Jerwyn: are you volunteering? 11:08:48 thd: proposal for a dashboard to show the organisations/individuals are contributing to Koha development 11:09:05 I don't know if this is a terrible idea, but maybe there could be a registration fee paid to some entity and that entity would use the money to do the 'policing'. I don't think we're ready for that yet 11:09:23 khall: maybe once we get the fundraising sorted... 11:09:34 cait1: agreed 11:09:41 drokf: can be 11:09:44 also it seems a bit contrary to our basic principles hm 11:09:45 when people pay they are entitled to be listed. or do you want to make them pay for the check and not list then? 11:09:50 khall; probably a terrible idea, don't think we are ready for that 11:09:55 Any attempt to objectively quantify contributions will ultimately be necessarily unfair and an extremely poor substitute for investigation on the part of libraries wanting services. 11:10:10 cait1: yes, it's kind of an icky thought, but would solve all the problems 11:10:40 khall: not sure, some will happily pay and still be evil :) 11:10:45 thd: I definitely agree 11:10:54 cait1: but at least they will be evil within the rules ; ) 11:11:11 A dashboard is what people at LibLime introduced in 2009? as a means of diminishing their competitors unfairly. 11:11:14 i think it was the reason we said we have a low barrier and not many checks - it's just too hard to judge failry 11:11:29 #idea let the paid support donate something from the community fundraising 11:11:32 I think the dashboard idea was so that this could more easily verify vendors claims that they 'contribute extensively' to Koha development 11:11:56 A dashboard is great. But its a different thing than a vendor list 11:12:35 mtj: agreed, complementary but different, and for different purposes 11:12:39 It doesn't help someone find koha support in their area 11:12:40 davidnind: I'm generally be down with the idea in that sense, but mtj is right 11:12:44 thd like what I've said how can you quantify gratis answers from people who asked you, that instead of focusing with primary work, you answer their questions even though you already told them that there is this koha community 11:12:51 davidnind: The idea of a dashboard is only good in abstract principle. There is no practise which would not lead to even unintended unfairness. 11:13:41 i tend to agree, such a think would be really hard to get right 11:13:53 How do we come some conclusion/way forward for this? 11:14:10 good question 11:14:14 There are some problems for which the possible remedies are worse than the problem itself. 11:14:27 we have collected some ideas 11:14:30 indeed, I think we have three options at the moment 11:14:34 1) Do nothing 11:14:36 maybe a next step would be to flesh them out on the wiki ? 11:14:37 2) Delete it 11:14:42 3) Move it to the wiki 11:14:45 We should at least try a wiki method. If we have problems. Then do dething else 11:14:49 #idea keep it like it is - some help in maintaining it was offered 11:15:02 do we have any more ideas of merit that are actionable? 11:15:30 #idea - a compromise: move the list to wiki... anyone can edit and place their names on it. And website links to dashboard. 11:15:51 Would adding a wiki page redundantly be helpful? 11:15:54 Right now I count 45 listings 11:16:22 i get junk mails from india now because of that list, btw. »I hope this email finds you in good health and high spirits. We're a team of creative geeks based out in India!!« 11:16:23 $ 11:16:42 * Joubu should not clean his kb... 11:16:45 a downside of the wiki might be that all we can do is sort alphabetically... maybe list by region 11:16:46 really, policing that many wouldn't be super difficult, except for the language barrier, which is a very high barrier itself 11:16:49 My suggestion: continue to maintain the list with more help and make sure vendors meet the criteria; add RFC to wiki to flesh out the ideas suggested here 11:17:17 davidnind: +1 11:17:23 yep that sounds good 11:17:28 i thik a list of options for the next meeting 11:17:33 and maybe we can then make a decision 11:17:34 Would adding a wiki page redundantly be helpful in addition to having the same content also in a web page which has been checked for spammers more completely? 11:17:38 does that sound ok? 11:17:50 khall: India has has the highest number of listed vendors, at least 3 - 4 are pending inclusion and more are ready to pop up 11:17:58 thd: have the same list twice? or am i misunderstanding? 11:18:05 in that case I think we'll need a team of watchers who cover all the languages those websites are available in 11:18:16 yes droijf 11:18:35 i like thelively discussion 11:18:37 I don't think you would want two lists 11:18:38 yes drojf 11:18:41 thd: then we have all prossible problems of both places 11:18:46 but i think we need to move on now to get this meeting to an end at some point :) 11:18:57 all the work with the maintained list and the edit wars ;) 11:19:04 cait1: agreed 11:19:20 #action Everyone to help add a list of options on how to proceed with the vendor listing to the wiki for the next meeting 11:19:30 davidnind++ for your offer of helping out - thx! 11:19:31 drojf: I agree with your argument that redundancy would be bad. 11:19:48 i will try to start an agenda later - please feel free to add to it! 11:20:06 #idea a team of volunteers covering all the languages needed to review the websites periodically 11:20:07 i will just try to give a starting point to make it easier for you all 11:20:30 to go in and add 11:20:33 ok, moving on 11:20:41 #topic GBSD 11:21:03 i had proposed to magnuse to have another gbsd, maybe in combination with a qa sprint 11:22:15 but we are both in doubt a bit, because: The last Global Bug Squashing Days have not generated a lot of signoffs. Why? How can we get more people excited and ready to contribute? 11:22:20 citing from the wiki 11:22:24 magnuse: still there? 11:22:25 there is no way to add items to a list? 11:22:38 wahanui: what? 11:22:39 drojf: wish i knew 11:23:30 now everyone has gone quiet heh 11:23:49 i think the gbsd in the evergreen community seems to be a bit more successful right now 11:24:10 cait1: any idea what they are doing that we aren't? 11:24:11 but i haven't checked how they are exactly organized 11:24:16 not yet 11:24:29 What is done differently with Evergreen GBSDs? 11:24:50 #idea have people suggest bugs they want to test beforehand and make sure they apply/are sandbox ready 11:24:51 khall: take part? :P 11:25:07 lol 11:26:30 apart from announcements i did not have much of a GBSD feeling the last times. did not seem that people are really doing this together, they just continued to do everyday work 11:26:32 it doesn't look really different - maybe it#s just newer, getting more attention? 11:26:37 #link http://evergreen-ils.org/evergreen-bug-squashing-day/ 11:26:50 drojf: yeah... but how can we change that? 11:26:56 another diea maybe 11:26:59 My thought is it depends on the underlying purpose: encourage contribution (including coaching new participants) or getting things done -- or both 11:27:11 #idea offer a beginners tutorial on that day - like helping people set up a kohadevbox 11:27:16 davidnind++ 11:27:28 cait1++ for the idea 11:27:49 Should it be made regular event? e.g. every month, or six weeks 11:28:03 cait1: one thing of note I see are they set up pre-configured sandboxes by request beforehand 11:28:06 #idea encourage contribution - including coaching new participants 11:28:06 cait1++ 11:28:29