10:04:46 #startmeeting General IRC meeting 9 September 2015 10:04:46 Meeting started Wed Sep 9 10:04:46 2015 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 10:04:46 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 10:04:46 The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_9_september_2015' 10:04:50 #topic introductions 10:04:50 #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient 10:05:05 please introduce yourself with #info, the agenda of today's meeting can be found under 10:05:12 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_9_September_2015 10:05:21 #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 10:05:24 #info Mirko Tietgen, Berlin, Germany 10:05:30 #info Bob Birchall, Calyx, Australia 10:05:37 Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 10:05:46 #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 10:06:06 a lot of people are on vacation this week 10:06:13 #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 10:06:40 way less than last week, as was shown by anecdotal evidence at the last meeting 10:07:02 #info Giannis Kourmoulis, Aristotle Univesity of Thessaloniki, Greece 10:07:09 #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe 10:07:21 small = quick? one can hope :) 10:07:26 :-) 10:07:35 ok, moving on 10:07:37 seldom turns out that way :) 10:07:42 #topic Announcements 10:08:18 noone? 10:08:18 noone is here! 10:08:26 we had a gbsd that i think was pretty successful 10:08:55 #info GBSD on 3 September was successful 10:09:00 do you have the stats link? 10:09:03 I'm aware of the PTFS sandboxes being a bit fragile at the moment.. it's on my list at some piont to investigate. 10:09:05 can you find it? 10:09:14 do youwant me to info? 10:09:17 that was sorta related to gbsd 10:09:28 ok :) 10:09:42 khall did a screenshare session and i know at least 2 new sign-offers came out of it 10:09:44 no did not bookmark it apparently 10:09:51 so i am pretty happy overall 10:10:10 yup, good gbsd! 10:10:13 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/2015-09-03_Global_bug_squashing_day 10:10:22 we didn't achieve a sign-off but a couple of things got moved along 10:10:25 i think it woudl be good if we offered something similar next time as well 10:10:33 * cait nods 10:10:38 #info Eugene Espinoza 10:10:43 also some bugzilla clean-up was done 10:10:49 http://bugs.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/progress.pl 10:11:12 definitely made an impact 10:11:22 made, had, too early for english 10:11:31 ok, moving on :) 10:11:57 #topic Update on Releases 10:12:11 any RM* here? 10:12:36 mtj? 10:12:37 i think mtj is DeM KraZy NutZ!! 10:12:53 ok, i'd say things aremoving along nicely 10:13:25 #info Fridolin announced EOL for 3.14 on the mailing list 10:13:44 anything else? 10:13:44 anything else is just being crap 10:14:00 ah 10:14:11 #info Plack packages need testing 10:14:15 wahanui be polite 10:14:16 BobB: huh? 10:14:39 probably not a good description - but tomas pushed plack scripts for packages to master and they need more testing :) 10:14:47 ok, moving on 10:15:04 #info KohaCon15 10:15:07 there should be a branch in kohadevbox with that stuff soon, to help with the testing 10:15:07 um 10:15:40 #info magnuse and tcohen are working on a branch for kohadevbox to help with the testing 10:15:45 thx magnuse 10:15:46 moving on 10:15:51 #topic KohaCon15 10:15:59 is one of the organizers present? 10:16:10 or someone attending / with information? 10:16:16 We have a couple of customers running Plack and CGI in parallel for live systems now. 10:16:18 when is it? octoberß 10:16:47 I thin in week 43 10:16:52 ashimema: runnign opac and staff? 10:16:56 i don't live by weeks ;) 10:17:19 staff is what we're trailing I think 10:17:21 but that would be in a month if my calendar is right 10:17:34 #link http://koha-community.org/kohacon/kohacon15/ 10:17:35 to improve performance for them.. very big customers.. 10:17:43 #link http://kohacon15.projektlinkkonsult.com/ 10:18:01 Philippine representative here 10:18:18 anything more plack or kohacon15? 10:18:19 brb 10:18:21 Workung meeting luch for me 10:18:28 not form me 10:18:38 ok 10:18:47 #topic KohaCon16 10:18:57 who wants to go first? :) 10:19:16 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 10:19:17 back 10:19:24 we got 2 proposals this year 10:19:29 well, we have… yes, that :) 10:19:43 Thessaloniki rep here 10:19:49 * drojf flips a coin 10:20:00 One from Thessaloniki, Greece and another from the Philippines 10:20:17 drojf: what's the result? 10:20:18 i guess the result is the same but legally, i don't think we can have discount on taxes... 10:20:23 any news from greece about kohacon 2016, ikourmou? 10:20:55 We are on track for the migration, we go live next week 10:21:08 oh, good luck 10:21:25 I would like to know the voting page URL, so that i inform my colleagues 10:21:52 the proposal was clear, no questions from me. anything else you would like to add? 10:21:55 do we have one yet ;) 10:22:06 no we don't, we will have at the end of the meeting :) 10:22:12 fingers crossed! 10:22:13 :) 10:22:29 oh 10:22:34 hm timing is everything 10:22:35 i already had it that way, drojf. 10:22:36 ok, if you need anything to clarify regarding our proposal... 10:22:37 ah we still got a schnydszch 10:22:45 i'm willing to do so 10:22:59 ikourmou: i think it is all there :) 10:23:12 any news about kohacon 2016 from the philippines, schnydszch2? 10:23:17 schnydszch2: Do you have an update on the venue in consequence of the national library not being available? 10:23:35 We have the full support of the national library of the philippines on this 10:24:00 So the location will still be the national library of the philippines 10:24:09 great 10:24:20 It will be available durong that tike according to estimate 10:24:25 schnydszch2: Great :) 10:24:49 so should i add manila then to the voting site? so far i have "thessaloniki, greece" and "philippines" which is a little odd :) 10:25:14 Manila, philippones 10:25:25 #info Location for the Philippines is Manila, National library 10:25:26 Manila, Philippines* 10:25:41 ok i will change that before it goes live 10:25:56 schnydszch2 anything else you would like to add? 10:25:59 National Library of the Philippines, Manila, Philippines 10:27:02 Nothing. Everything else is in the wiki proposal 10:27:04 we will start voting now. there are only two candidates, so that won't be too complicated. basically, i have two options 10:27:25 "now", after the meeting really 10:27:36 how long is it going to run? 10:28:29 What had we determined about polling period last month. 10:28:32 ? 10:28:42 we could do a simple radio button vote where you choose on option, or a ranking. the ranking would have also the option of either one or two votes, like "i prefer a, but would go to b" or "i would only go to a" 10:29:22 in the latter case we would have to decide how to count that. given it is only two options, it will probably not make a difference in the end 10:29:29 the voting period is one week 10:29:51 #info Voting for the bids is going to start today, the voting period is a week. 10:30:09 to show you what i mean… 10:30:11 drojf: If using a radio button, it should be blank by default. 10:30:12 i'd say keep it simple: a or b, no second alternative 10:30:41 option 1 http://abunchofthings.net/limesurvey/index.php/614551?lang=en 10:30:41 option 2 http://abunchofthings.net/limesurvey/index.php/177931?lang=en 10:31:06 thd: it's blank and the order is randomized 10:31:07 thd: it is 10:31:45 the second page is an error for me./ 10:32:09 oh? what kind of error? 10:32:12 permission setting i think 10:32:13 For me as well 10:32:19 oh sorry. wait :) 10:32:21 yup.. permission error 10:32:23 We are sorry but you don't have permissions to do this. 10:32:25 Could be because i tested it? 10:33:45 1st one works for me, not second. first time visitor. 10:34:08 does that work http://abunchofthings.net/limesurvey/index.php/393475 10:34:19 schnydszch2 and magnuse believe in the maxim 'Vote early and vote often!' :) 10:34:48 it lacks the "not the real deal" warning now 10:34:52 Second one works 10:34:57 but it is not, don'tpass it around ;) 10:35:10 yup.. 10:35:34 like magnuse, i would say for the two options the simple one is enough 10:35:47 but i am open for opinions 10:36:01 I tihnk we'd need to clearly state how the votes count if we wen't for the latter. 10:36:06 before putting it up 10:36:14 ashimema: yes, we would have to decide that now 10:36:17 rangi told me he preferred the ranking method 10:36:19 so yeah.. I agree.. go for the former ;) 10:36:20 and put it in 10:36:25 #me hates drag and drop metaphor but likes ranked voting principle. 10:36:25 yes, the first one (with the radiobuttons) is straightforward 10:36:44 a problem we had in the past is that it was not clear to everyone that you could rank only one option instead of all options 10:36:51 are there some ranking systems fro exactly this out there 10:36:56 in case we had more proposals, ranking would definitely be interesting 10:37:02 so there is some possible fuzziness there 10:38:01 I think first one will work because we only have two 10:38:12 do you waynt to vote on the way we vote? ;) 10:38:22 heh 10:38:23 I sorta like the ranking.. 10:38:24 so far i think the simple option is preferred 10:38:39 as it takes account of the 'I can't make it to x, but would attend y' 10:38:52 my proposal for the ranking would be 2 points for first, 1 for second, 0 if not chosen 10:39:22 there are probably a lot of schemes aqnd calculations about such things out there that i don't know about ;) 10:39:27 If one is chosen since there are only two so the ranking will be 2 points for the one chosen and one point for the pther 10:39:57 and if you only chose one option 2 points total? 10:40:00 if you do rank and you allow for a no vote.. 10:40:05 then you have 4 options.. 10:40:21 atm you have to choose 1 or 2 options 10:40:24 a + b, b + a, a, b 10:40:24 that can be set 10:40:25 In the past we would have a vote and examined the result under various schemes for interpreting ranking. 10:40:44 i think we should be clear now 10:40:53 thd: have the results first and then choose the interpretation? 10:40:55 before the vote starts 10:41:00 that sounds… odd :) 10:41:13 I'd almost say.. for the 'can't go there' it needs to almost be a negative vote 10:41:18 drojf: Yes it was odd, however, ... 10:41:53 ashimema: let#s not complicate things :P 10:41:59 if it's not.. and you just auto asign a second choice your in fact counting it against those who cannot attend a particular destination 10:42:06 the choice of scheme to interpret the results would not have changed the result in our actual experience. 10:42:27 thd: that is true. the choice of voting style won't do that this time either 10:43:00 people from greece will vote only greece, people from the philippines will only vote philippines. and some devs will ranks because the company pays travel expenses 10:43:11 *rank 10:43:12 not sure if you can say that 10:43:20 lol 10:43:40 if people misunderstand the form, they also might rank 2 because they think they have to 10:43:47 disclaimer: just my gut feeling, not an official announcement :) 10:43:47 yup 10:44:00 yes, that was leading to trouble before 10:44:01 i am fine with either opton 10:44:14 but it's like to have a clear scheme for the ranking and a good clear note on the page 10:44:22 with the ranking you could have A 51% as first, B 49% as first - and then B might still win if it has a lot more 2nd places than A 10:44:35 so do we vote on the voting? 10:44:40 magnuse: in theory, yes. depending in how that is counted 10:44:59 On one occasion at least, the preference order for some later ranked choices would have been different with different interpretation schemes. 10:45:24 i'm fine with both options, as long as we agree on the interpretation upfront 10:45:55 so we can say, if you rank, that means exactly this and that 10:46:18 i like the simple option, but cait has to decide if this is going to a vote 10:46:23 agreed 10:46:24 it has to be clear what is going on, no fuzzy interpretation afterwards 10:46:54 BobB: no problem with a vote to vote... 10:47:01 but i think it would be good to know how the secnd opton works :) 10:47:14 shall i start a vote? 10:47:15 yup 10:47:15 do you want to decide that before voting? 10:47:31 I like the drojf's simple 2, 1, 0 count on this occasion for interpreting ranking. 10:47:55 we could vote on the vote count before we vote on the vote :P 10:47:59 if it's 2,1,0.. does a 0 vote pair with a 1.. or a 2 10:48:14 i think if there is a majority for ranking, then spend time working out the schema ... 10:48:18 ashimema: i don't understand the question :) 10:48:27 #startvote Should we be using the radiobutton or the ranking method for voting? (radio,ranking) 10:48:27 Begin voting on: Should we be using the radiobutton or the ranking method for voting? Valid vote options are , radio, ranking, . 10:48:27 Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 10:48:28 BobB: +1 10:48:31 Ultimately, I prefer a score voting but scheme, but that is a different discussion for a different poll. 10:49:00 noone? 10:49:00 noone is, like, here 10:49:01 a + b = 2 + 1 10:49:03 a only = 2 + 0 OR 1 + 0 10:49:24 i abstain and follow orders then ;) 10:49:29 #vote ranking 10:49:35 #vote radio 10:49:41 #vote radio 10:49:48 #vote radio 10:49:51 #vote radio 10:49:56 i think radio vote doesn't mean you can't go to your second favourite choice if you want to :) 10:50:08 ranking is too hard with just this meeting to work it out ;) 10:50:25 you all should go to kohacon 2016, regardless of the location and your vote ;) 10:50:49 that entirely depends on your employer in many cases I would imagine 10:50:50 i will certainly try :) 10:51:07 schnydszch: ? 10:51:12 ashimema: true. but your vote for a should not keep you away from going to b :) 10:51:13 greece.. we could send a party of people.. phillapines we'll be lucky to afford to send one. 10:51:20 droif airfares make a huge diff for us: one location, we send one delegate, the other location we can send three :) 10:51:31 ashimema: snap 10:51:32 ashimema: The "too hard" aspect is partly why we had not specified a specific interpretation scheme in the past. 10:51:47 lol 10:51:56 everyone voted i think? 10:52:11 i was hoping schnydszch 10:52:12 I'd go for ranking every time if we had a scheme agreed upon ;) 10:52:21 #vote radio 10:52:30 as they are bidding 10:52:35 but we might have lost him 10:52:45 * ashimema hates the first past the post method in politics too) 10:52:59 ashimema++ 10:53:03 schnydszch2: back? 10:53:04 and forth. 10:53:05 the vote is still open 10:53:10 ashimema: we still could ;) 10:53:28 Sorry got cut what's to vote on? 10:53:55 ould we be using the radiobutton or the ranking method for voting? Valid vote options are , radio, ranking, . 10:54:05 should we be using... 10:54:14 #vote eadio 10:54:14 schnydszch2: eadio is not a valid option. Valid options are , radio, ranking, . 10:54:30 #vote radio 10:54:36 #endvote 10:54:36 Voted on "Should we be using the radiobutton or the ranking method for voting?" Results are 10:54:36 ranking (1): thd 10:54:36 radio (6): magnuse, cait, schnydszch2, ashimema, BobB, ikourmou 10:54:41 hm ok 10:54:57 is there a second half to this meeting? 10:55:05 #agreed 2 Radiobuttons, randomized order and no preselection will be used for the vote 10:55:10 ashimema: not this time around 10:55:12 I reckon rangi etc would vote the other way ;) 10:55:17 ok that seems clear. and both bidders voted for radio too, so they won't be unhappy with it 10:55:18 yeah 10:55:25 yup.. 10:55:38 yeah i think it's good that we got the representatives here 10:55:40 * ashimema suggests we work uot the scheme nice and early for the next vote ;) 10:55:51 :) thx for attending ikourmou and schnydszch! 10:55:54 ashimema: put it on the agenda for next time 10:56:05 You're welcome! 10:56:11 thank you! 10:56:22 ok i will set that up now while you continue. i will send out an email to the list with the url soon 10:56:35 ok, if you are done before, maybe can paste here too i am moving on 10:56:36 so you can inform everyone interested 10:56:41 yes 10:56:48 #info Support vendor listing on the website 10:56:57 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Paid_support_providers_list_RFC 10:57:04 there are no proposals added to the wiki page 10:57:04 #topic cait 10:57:07 oh 10:57:08 thx 10:57:15 #topic Support vendor listing on the website 10:57:20 sorry for messing up the minutes 10:57:29 #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Paid_support_providers_list_RFC 10:57:33 thx for chairing! 10:57:43 wizzyrea has added a lot of the requests by now 10:57:52 ashimema: A problem with vote interpretation schemes is a lack of consensus amongst experts in voting theory on what the one true mathematically fair voting system would be. 10:57:55 so i think the state of the website directory is currently up to date 10:58:18 are there volunteers I could #action that want to follow up on the discussion? 10:59:54 . 11:00:55 if not 11:01:02 i'd like to remove this from the agenda for now 11:01:08 k 11:01:31 yes 11:01:52 #info the discussion fo the suport provider list is going to be removed from the agenda for now 11:02:04 #topic Actions from last meeting 11:02:31 drojf send out an email - all done 11:02:44 #action drojf is going ot send out an email with the URL vor voting after this meeting 11:02:56 #topic Next meeting 11:03:13 #action BobB will follow up with bag re fundraising 11:03:33 thx BobB 11:03:48 Suggestion: October 7 11:04:06 20 UTC? 11:04:27 just a mo' 11:05:18 hmm 7am, ok 11:05:21 I like that suggestion, as it avoids a potential conflict as I conclude work protecting a friend from eviction. 11:05:39 ok? 11:05:46 not gong to start another vote :) 11:05:46 :) 11:05:53 +1 11:06:00 +1 11:06:06 #info Next meeting is going to be October 7, 20 UTC 11:06:13 thx everyone for attending! 11:06:18 #endmeeting