14:01:38 <ashimema> #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 10 July 2019
14:01:38 <huginn`> Meeting started Wed Jul 10 14:01:38 2019 UTC.  The chair is ashimema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:38 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:01:38 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019'
14:01:56 <ashimema> #chair cait
14:01:56 <huginn`> Current chairs: ashimema cait
14:01:58 <ashimema> #topic Introductions
14:02:08 <thd> #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
14:02:09 <ashimema> #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe
14:03:08 <fridolin> #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre France
14:03:21 <ashimema> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Agenda
14:04:52 <ashimema> I'm sure cait was here a minute ago
14:05:34 <cait> oh yes
14:05:40 <ashimema> coudl be a short one if that's all we've got
14:05:50 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
14:06:07 * cait pings random people
14:06:09 <cait> rmaints?
14:06:09 <wahanui> rmaints is fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea
14:06:26 <fridolin> all is good
14:06:31 <cait> khall bag tcohen
14:06:33 <fridolin> sorry I'm a bit late on backport
14:06:34 <cait> Joubu
14:06:41 <ashimema> #topic Announcements
14:07:35 <cait> nothing fromme
14:07:43 <fridolin> I made a new plugin https://github.com/biblibre/koha-plugin-theme-intranet-lsd
14:07:50 <ashimema> #info The first set of maintanence releases have gone out since the last meeting.. Thanks to the RMaints :)
14:07:59 * tcohen is heading downtown, sorry
14:08:10 <ashimema> lol
14:08:26 <ashimema> moving on then
14:08:30 <ashimema> #topic Update from the Release manager
14:09:13 <ashimema> Things are ticking along... I'm currently blocked by failing tests on Jenkins but have tcohen on the case (as I've reached a dead end with my own efforts)
14:09:16 <ashimema> teamwork++
14:10:52 <ashimema> that's pretty much it from me..
14:10:59 <ashimema> #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers
14:11:08 <ashimema> rmaints?
14:11:08 <wahanui> rmaints is, like, fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea
14:11:08 * ashimema grr, forgot to info my update
14:11:19 <cait> heh
14:11:33 <wizzyrea> #info liz rea
14:12:04 <wizzyrea> things are going along from my point of view
14:12:47 <ashimema> any updates fridolin
14:12:47 <ashimema> or wizzyrea
14:12:47 <wahanui> i heard wizzyrea was very glad the git repo is reliably working todya
14:13:00 <fridolin> nothing special in 19.05.x
14:13:06 <wizzyrea> nothing special in 18.05.x
14:13:07 <fridolin> sorry i'm a bit late on pushing
14:13:34 <ashimema> no worries :)
14:13:34 <ashimema> ok.. moving onto QA then
14:13:34 <cait> #info maintenance releases are moving along nicely
14:13:35 <ashimema> #topic Updates from the QA team
14:13:53 <cait> we are a bit low on QA time right now is my general feeling
14:14:30 <cait> #info Number of bad bugs on the dashboard are too high - 3 blockers, 4 criticals, 22 majors
14:14:41 <wizzyrea> ohh that's gross
14:14:50 * wizzyrea makes a note
14:14:53 <cait> #info Please focus on bugs for now if time is low - we need to make sure they are taken care of
14:15:10 <cait> it's not only QA there, missing patches, SO.... a mix
14:15:21 <cait> so really everyone can help there  ;)
14:15:26 * ashimema would be interested to see a graph of QA activity over a few cycles.. it would be interesting to see if there's a patturn to the ebbs adn flows
14:15:29 <wizzyrea> :D
14:15:47 <cait> I think it feels like the European summer 'hole' right now
14:15:55 <cait> probably a German term
14:15:59 <wizzyrea> yeah it's holiday time
14:16:11 <cait> things just slow down a lot - but it's a little unnerving for those who are still here :)
14:16:22 <ashimema> admitedly only three of those are in the QA queue right now..
14:16:32 <cait> I've also inlcuded some new contributors in my weekly QA email, there are quite a few in NSO
14:16:39 <cait> please be nice
14:16:49 <cait> #info Be nice to people starting out - new contributors :)
14:16:59 <ashimema> there's a few in NSO and more in need of some code submitting
14:17:18 <cait> ashimema: that's correct - it's really an all-community-task
14:17:49 <cait> wizzyrea: i'd be happy if you could start with this one - bug 23293
14:17:49 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23293 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , OPACFineNoRenewals compares against 'balance' not 'outstanding'
14:17:51 <cait> argh
14:17:59 <cait> bug 23283
14:17:59 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23283 critical, P5 - low, ---, lucas, Needs Signoff , cannot view/edit additional attributes in 18.11.x
14:18:27 <ashimema> I'll try to take on one or two of the 'Major' ones still without code
14:18:44 <wizzyrea> ah right
14:18:49 <wizzyrea> which solution there do we like better
14:18:55 <wizzyrea> the 2nd?
14:18:56 <wahanui> the 2nd is the staff interface
14:19:22 <cait> i think it's only one patch now
14:19:30 <cait> it seems to include the change mark made - but please double check
14:20:26 <wizzyrea> oh right
14:20:30 <wizzyrea> yep ok
14:20:49 <cait> nothing more from me
14:20:58 <cait> hit me up if you have a spare moment and need inspiration :)
14:21:09 <ashimema> okies, moving on then
14:21:26 <ashimema> #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
14:21:45 <ashimema> we have a few to go through
14:21:46 <ashimema> do we have alex_a around?
14:22:12 <corilynn> I haven't seen him since last week, ashimema
14:22:21 <wizzyrea> holidayyyyys
14:22:25 <ashimema> #topic Mana-KB Workflows
14:22:33 <ashimema> #info Looking for some guidance on how to progress ManaKB serverside bugs
14:22:53 <ashimema> perhaps best to postpone that one again then..
14:23:08 <fridolin> alex is on holidays
14:23:10 <fridolin> for 3 weeks
14:23:17 <ashimema> it's unclear how we want to manage that project as a community yet.. there's no clear path through SO/QA and Push
14:23:38 <ashimema> but there is a record of issues in Bugzilla.. so we need to define how we want to operate there.
14:23:54 <ashimema> anywho.. lets move on whilst the relevant parties aren't here
14:24:05 <cait> can we add a note?
14:24:22 <cait> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration is missing infromation for Hea and Mana
14:24:43 <ashimema> #info Postponed discussion as the key parties are not in attendance
14:24:45 <cait> I'd really like to have some information on the provider and who to talk
14:25:05 <cait> #info Note for later: Update/complate https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration for Mana and Hea
14:25:11 <cait> complete...
14:25:30 <ashimema> thanks
14:25:57 <ashimema> #topic Road to Mojolicious
14:26:28 <ashimema> #info I'll be starting to look at bug 23161 in the next couple of weeks with a view to persuing pushing it early next month
14:26:28 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23161 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , We need to document the release process for this project?
14:26:56 <ashimema> #info Correction, that was meant to be bug 20582
14:26:56 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20582 enhancement, P5 - low, Future, julian.maurice, Signed Off , Turn Koha into a Mojolicious application
14:27:18 <cait> not only me today :)
14:27:42 <ashimema> I think there's a general concensus that it's worth investigating.. I want to get a few more key parties involved and get their opinions, excitment and fears
14:28:19 <ashimema> unless anyone has anything else they specifically want to say on that one, it was more of an anouncement than a discussion.. please get involved :)
14:28:37 <ashimema> moving on
14:29:00 <ashimema> #topic Git maintanence
14:29:07 <ashimema> ack, no Joubu.. he was meant to be leading the charge on this one.
14:29:25 <ashimema> #info The gitlab mirror is currently failing to mirror correctly as our main repository is so large.
14:29:55 <cait> oh
14:29:57 <ashimema> #info This really just highlights that the repository is still growing at an alarming rate and as such many of our tools are starting to struggle.
14:30:40 <ashimema> rangi has already proposed we move the translations into their own repository
14:30:49 <thd> It may also highlight potential problems with Gitlab overhead.
14:30:56 <ashimema> and we have other suggestions
14:31:12 <ashimema> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Git_Splitting_and_Shrinking Git maintanence proposals
14:32:02 <cait> we just need to make sure we have a clear workflow
14:32:03 <ashimema> I would say we do need to reduce our core repo's footprint at some point.. we've been discussing it for years for all sorts of reasons... I think it's time we took some decisive action
14:32:06 <cait> for how to ship translations
14:32:16 <ashimema> indeed cait
14:32:19 <thd> Moving translations and anything non-destructive to potentially important code history should be preferred.
14:32:21 <cait> woudl splitting out mean we don't include them anymore in packages etc?
14:32:49 <ashimema> but also need a consensus on how far we go with the cleanup..
14:33:01 <fridolin> we should build anguage packages like firefox does
14:33:05 <ashimema> we have a few options outlined on that page.. please take a look and contribute to the discussions.
14:33:24 <cait> i am just worried because we are so log on people now - we can't leave this half-finished
14:33:43 <cait> i think the history on the po files is not relevant
14:33:54 <cait> as it's all automated and not 'personal'
14:34:07 <ashimema> right now cait, I believe the idea is to use git submodules (so the build process would remain as is but the maints would need to pull the submodule repo rather than merge the latest translations commit)
14:34:12 <cait> hm maybe some from pre-pootle days... but most shoudl be just the translation server as author
14:34:38 <cait> ashimema: how woudl the update happen on the submodule repo?
14:34:44 <ashimema> the issue with loosing history isn't the history of those files themselves but the way git records it..
14:35:21 <ashimema> removing those files historically (which would lead to the biggest improvement in repo size) would change the commit hashes for the whole history (every commit)..
14:35:27 <ashimema> which could cause headaches
14:35:53 <cait> oh
14:35:57 <cait> so all links in bugzilla etc... broken?
14:36:10 <ashimema> pretty much as it does now cait.. the translations are already basically maintained in their own repo on github.. the rmaints (and rm) just pull in one commit each release from it.
14:36:12 <cait> not such a big fan fo that idea
14:36:28 <fridolin> my disk space is fan of it ;)
14:36:52 <ashimema> kohadevbox and koha-testing-docker would be fans of it ;)
14:37:27 <fridolin> and jenkins
14:37:51 <cait> so that would be... option 3?
14:37:52 <thd> Which options break links?
14:38:05 <ashimema> there's lots of good positives here.. it's whether they outweight the negatives
14:38:22 <corilynn> i don't think i understand the negatives
14:38:45 <cait> i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes
14:38:52 <cait> and it's all still there but reorganized
14:38:55 <thd> Does option 3 "Keep-loose history" break links?
14:39:20 <ashimema> I should clean up that page.. it doesn't make it desperately clear
14:39:21 <ashimema> what links are we talking about cait?
14:39:22 <ashimema> an example would be good
14:39:34 <cait> linking to a commit on git
14:40:23 <cait> some bug trackers allow you do that nicely... i think we don't have tons of those in bugzilla, only some
14:40:45 <cait> usually something liek: i tracked it back to commit... breaking things
14:40:53 <ashimema> personally.. I like the idea of drawing a line and having a koha-legacy repo where all the links would just continue to work
14:41:07 <ashimema> as nothing would change.. it just stops moving
14:41:19 <ashimema> then doing the splitting and cleaning as a fresh set of repos
14:41:46 <ashimema> all new development goes onto the new repo's
14:42:03 <ashimema> the issue is more about how all devs would need to switch to tracking the new repository
14:42:14 <cait> (16:38:44) cait: i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes
14:42:14 <cait> (16:38:52) cait: and it's all still there but reorganized
14:42:21 <cait> still a bit stuck on that question
14:42:30 <thd> Yes, if creating legacy preserves all history and does not break past links.
14:42:32 <ashimema> and.. their existing branches and patches would need updateing to apply to the new repos'
14:42:57 <ashimema> what you'd see allot of in the beggining would be that horrible `sha1 does not apply` pach issue on existing bugs and patches.
14:43:27 <cait> i've never learned how to resolve these
14:43:33 <cait> so it's a little scary
14:43:43 <ashimema> it's that applying bugzilla patches stuff that would be painful for a few months I think
14:43:44 <thd> The problem to not break links would also be about naming such that if the old would be renamed koha-legacy that itself would break links.
14:44:20 <cait> if we moved to gitlab or similar it woudl also get broken... links would be nice... but more concerned about the not applying now
14:44:32 <ashimema> indeed thd.. though we could symlink 'koha' to 'koha-legacy' at the main koha git repo server end I believe..
14:44:34 <cait> how do you handle patches that don't apply developer side? with the sha1?
14:44:49 <ashimema> and move forward with 'koha-core' and 'koha-i18n' or whatever as the new
14:45:21 <ashimema> you can manually apply them cait.. though it doesn't always work nicely
14:45:35 <cait> what means manually apply?
14:46:33 <ashimema> what you can often do is 'patch -p1 < failed_patch.patch'
14:46:58 <cait> hm if we do that change... I thnk we need to have that written up
14:47:01 <ashimema> I can write something up to help with that pain.. but it certainly would cause pain to start with
14:47:12 <cait> and also have people helping others with rebasing
14:47:53 <ashimema> indeed
14:48:15 <ashimema> Joubu is keen to move forward and I'm keen to 'do it right'
14:48:39 <cait> I am not against doing it, but let's not rush
14:48:51 <cait> amybe we can make the page a bit clearer on suspected side effects
14:49:01 <cait> and do  a feedback round on the mailing list? (koha-devel)
14:49:03 <ashimema> as in.. make sure the community are in agreement as to how and understand the repurcussions and benefits
14:49:05 <ashimema> indeed
14:49:21 <ashimema> I think I'll leave it as a standing topic whilst Joubu and I work on clarifying it all
14:49:26 <ashimema> yeah, that's also a good idea cait
14:49:42 <ashimema> shall we move onto the next topic for now?
14:50:10 <ashimema> #info Martin will send something to the dev mailing list regarding git maintanence proposals
14:50:21 <thd> Given that the vast majority of the problem comes from translation history I presume that preserving translations monolithically would be liable to recreate the same problem for translations at a later point if not immediately.
14:50:29 <ashimema> #info Martin will try to clarify the existing git splitting page
14:50:57 <ashimema> #info We will keep this as a standing topic on the agenda whilst it's still in progress
14:51:38 <ashimema> perhaps thd.. but it's a problem that will affect fewer people
14:52:13 <ashimema> the main effects at this point in time are issues with devbox and things struggling to cope with the size of the main repo..
14:52:41 <thd> If a koha-legacy is created would it not be better to then also have separate repositories for each translation to constrain history size?
14:52:43 <ashimema> in reality only the translation manager and rmaints/rm ever need to actually interact with the i18n repo at all
14:52:46 <ashimema> hense 'they can cope'
14:53:08 <thd> ...ahh
14:53:27 <ashimema> I don't believe it would win us much.. for the above reasons ;)
14:53:42 <ashimema> it's only really the main repo for the majority of devs that we're worried about..
14:54:25 <ashimema> example in point.. at the hackfests we often get a group of new devs all trying to clone our main repo at the same time..
14:54:32 <ashimema> because it's huge and they're all doing it we often swamp the bandwidth of the local internet and everyone grinds to a halt
14:54:53 <thd> one can always imagine features which could have a high growth trajectory.
14:55:02 <ashimema> a smaller repo would basically make that sort of problem go away
14:55:05 <ashimema> instead of 'git clone -> go and have lunch' it would be 'git clone -> grab a cup of tea'
14:55:19 <ashimema> hehe, indeed
14:55:23 <ashimema> so......
14:55:23 <wahanui> i think so is the koha ON the mac?
14:55:43 <ashimema> moving on.. thanks for all the input and please keep mulling it over if you have any thoughts
14:56:07 <ashimema> #topic Review of coding guidelines
14:56:20 <thd> We would need to be mindful of potential features which might lead to the same problem and create separate repositories for them when the growth curve becomes evident.
14:56:24 <ashimema> #topc Using the Koha::Script base class
14:56:31 <ashimema> #topic Using the Koha::Script base class
14:57:00 <ashimema> correct thd
14:57:50 <ashimema> So.. we introduced a base class for command line scripts with bug 22600, but neglected to add a guidline to ensure it's use going forward.
14:57:50 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=22600 blocker, P2, ---, martin.renvoize, RESOLVED FIXED, We should add an 'interface' field to accountlines
14:58:18 <ashimema> As it stands, that base class basically sets up a consistent environment for scripts to run, so we get consistent action_logs for example from all cronjobs and maintanence scripts
14:58:42 <ashimema> I propose to write such a guideline and take a vote on it next meeting (forgot to do a draft for this meeting)
14:59:40 <cait> +1
14:59:40 <ashimema> #info We introduced a base class for scripts in bug 22600 - We should add a guideline to facilitate it's maintanence.
14:59:57 <ashimema> :)
15:00:02 <ashimema> ok.. I'll write it up for next meeting.. apologies I'm bhind
15:00:14 <ashimema> next
15:00:19 * fridolin goes to train, see you
15:00:28 <ashimema> #topic Update to SQL12
15:00:35 <ashimema> this one was another Joubu + tcohen one
15:00:58 <ashimema> I'll try to explain though..
15:01:58 <ashimema> We currently use TINYINT(1) in the database for any form of boolean.. but TINYINT(1) may also be used for other things which makes it hard for QA scripts to tell if it's meant to be a boolean or not
15:01:59 <ashimema> and..
15:03:42 <ashimema> qa people are missing cases where booleans are being introduced and not being appropraitely set in the DBIC classes (and as such the REST api is not converiting them to valid JSON::Booleans)
15:03:49 <ashimema> I 'think' the discussion here was meant to ask 'What next'
15:03:49 <ashimema> should we switch to something other than TINYINT(1) (BOOLEAN or BIT perhaps)
15:03:56 <ashimema> or set a 'warning' type failure in the QA scripts and get the QA persons to decide whether it's an actual fail or not?
15:04:00 <ashimema> thoughts?
15:04:12 * ashimema wishes tcohen and Joubu were here
15:04:54 <ashimema> met by silence.. another one to wait on the relevant parties I reckon
15:05:02 <cait> maybe
15:05:09 <cait> not quite the topic i know a lot about :)
15:05:20 <ashimema> #info Further discussion postponed pending knowledable parties.
15:05:49 <ashimema> #topic Revise JS guideline JS8 to recomment ESLint
15:05:51 <thd> I think that treating booleans as a numeric value has huge importance for future standards based support.
15:06:06 <ashimema> oleonard around?
15:06:07 <ashimema> this is his?
15:06:12 <cait> i think so
15:07:16 <ashimema> MS SQL is about the only DB system that gets 'BOOLEAN' right as per the original intention of the SQL spec apparently
15:07:16 <ashimema> thd ^
15:07:23 <ashimema> I 'think' BIT is the closest other DB's have got
15:08:26 <ashimema> OK, no oleonard and we've hit the 1 hour mark
15:08:33 <ashimema> lets move onto the last topic
15:08:43 <thd> Well, if that is really correct and widely applicable for other contexts of Boolean use as well then great.  ... moving
15:08:47 <ashimema> #info Posponed discussion as oleonard is absent
15:09:00 <ashimema> #topic Set time of next meeting
15:09:36 <ashimema> coming into summer now so I think we're going to be operating on a skeliton crew for the next few meetings
15:12:10 <thd> Is 24 July a useful date?
15:12:35 <reiveune> bye
15:12:42 <cait> winter in nz :)
15:12:51 <cait> should work
15:13:14 <ashimema> I think it'll be a short one.. but I do think it's good to have one in the diary every two weeks (we can always cancel the slot if there are no topics)
15:13:22 <ashimema> so.. that would make it 24th July I believe
15:13:24 <cait> agreed
15:13:56 <ashimema> and.. I'm trying to be good and line up so the NZ croud can attend.. so that puts it
15:14:16 <ashimema> 8pm BST
15:14:34 <ashimema> 19:00 UTC
15:14:46 <ashimema> so...
15:15:17 <cait> too early
15:15:20 <ashimema> 24 July 2019, 19:00:00 UTC - Does that suit?
15:15:23 <thd> 20 UTC is currently set for the general meeting but I think 19 UTC may be closer to what people favoured in the preferred times poll.
15:15:42 <cait> hm let me check quickly
15:16:04 <cait> i think 20 might work slightly better
15:16:04 <ashimema> 19UTC was what we did two weeks ago
15:16:10 <cait> because of daylight savings
15:16:15 <cait> 10 hours from here to nz
15:16:31 <cait> 20 utc should be 8 am
15:16:42 <thd> We have allowed meeting times to drift in the opposite direction of the survey times as summer time changes have come and gone.
15:16:44 <ashimema> any objections anyone else
15:17:01 <cait> more likely to catch people at work
15:17:19 <thd> I prefer 19 UTC so no objection from me.
15:17:58 <ashimema> sorry.. I meant objections to 20
15:18:03 <thd> I was trying to state that 19 UTC may be closer to what the time survey had indicated people favoured.
15:18:10 <ashimema> 20 is 9pm UK
15:19:04 <ashimema> nothing say it needs to be on the hour.. perhaps 19:30 in a vane atempt to keep more people happy
15:19:25 <thd> I like 19.30 ;)
15:19:35 <cait> keep people on their toes ;)
15:20:12 <ashimema> #info Next meeting: 24 July 2019, 19:30 UTC
15:20:12 <ashimema> done :)
15:20:13 <thd> People may need special notice to show up not too early and leave :)
15:20:15 <ashimema> thanks all
15:20:18 <ashimema> #endmeeting