14:01:09 <caroline> #startmeeting Documentation IRC meeting 13 April 2023
14:01:09 <huginn> Meeting started Thu Apr 13 14:01:09 2023 UTC.  The chair is caroline. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:09 <huginn> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:01:09 <huginn> The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_irc_meeting_13_april_2023'
14:01:12 <caroline> #topic Introductions
14:01:19 <caroline> please use "#info" in front of your introduction to have it show up in the automatic minutes
14:01:28 <caroline> #link agenda https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Documentation_IRC_meeting_13_April_2023
14:01:44 <caroline> #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inlibro, Québec Canada
14:01:50 <aude_c[m]> #info Aude Charillon, PTFS Europe, UK
14:02:36 <cait> paulderscheid[m]: uniform title?
14:03:12 <aude_c[m]> Sorry cait , that was me asking how you would say "uniform title" in German!
14:04:15 <cait> i think with RDA they killed the sach
14:04:19 <cait> Einheitstitel
14:04:27 <cait> but woudl have to check with my cataloguing coworkers
14:04:46 <cait> I work with one of the authors of the German RDA book :)
14:05:13 <aude_c[m]> Ohh. That's fine, thank you. I've used Einheitssachtitel; the library will tell me if they want something else!
14:05:23 <caroline> #topic Updates - Review of action points
14:05:36 <caroline> cait followup on mailing list close down
14:05:41 <caroline> did you have news from paul?
14:05:50 <cait> no, but was planning to ask again
14:05:55 <cait> sorry, only here with one eye :)
14:06:01 <caroline> lol no problem
14:06:19 <cait> I stil get a moderation request every day, I won't forget :)
14:06:38 <caroline> I thought of reminding you during hackfest, but only thought about it on Friday morning (so friday afternoon for you) a bit too late
14:07:09 <caroline> caroline to send an email to the mailing list about hackfest screenshot update details - I totally forgot about this I'm really sorry!
14:07:24 <caroline> I know it still happened, we'll talk about it in the project updates
14:07:45 <caroline> caroline to ping docs team member friday march 17 to do a test run for screenshot update - I didn't forget this and we did it and it worked well I think?
14:07:53 <caroline> all to look into their own docs for ES related info and submit it to have a starting point in the manual
14:07:57 <aude_c[m]> yes! :)
14:08:31 <aude_c[m]> I gathered my ES doc but haven't submitted anything to the manual yet...
14:09:00 <caroline> Cool thanks aude_c[m] !
14:09:40 <caroline> I have some stuff about mappings https://inlibro.com/knowledge-base/index-de-recherche-elasticsearch/
14:09:59 <aude_c[m]> To clarify: I don't actually have anything ready to submit yet!
14:10:42 <aude_c[m]> ByWater shared an Elastic syntax cheatsheet from SEKLS https://bywatersolutions.com/education/monday-minutes-elastic-search
14:10:54 <caroline> last action point was caroline to add video calls to next agenda which I did just now, it will be in the project updates
14:11:22 <caroline> #topic Project updates
14:11:50 <caroline> #info Hackfest screenshot extravaganza happened headed aby Aude
14:12:20 <aude_c[m]> On-site on the Wednesday: 6 people participating (plus me), 36 screenshots replaced in total. Joining remotely: Lucy replaced another 15.
14:12:44 <caroline> wow!
14:12:51 <aude_c[m]> I had to improvise as I didn't expect that many people on site and wasn't well prepared, but we managed to make it work!
14:13:06 <aude_c[m]> Two Hackfest participants replaced another 7 screenshots the next day.
14:13:34 <aude_c[m]> I think it would be fun to do again. Lucy and I are going to keep going.
14:13:56 <caroline> That's great!
14:14:11 <caroline> segue into automated screenshots?
14:14:14 <aude_c[m]> Maybe doing everything on GitLab directly (including amending images.rst) would be better next time
14:14:29 <AnkeB> Hi, can anyone help with Zebra indexing?
14:14:35 <aude_c[m]> because it would helps us spot things that have been deleted by mistake a bit quicker
14:14:44 <AnkeB> Esp. the date range search for pubdate?
14:15:17 <aude_c[m]> Also, the "who's doing what" notepad may still be relevant https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/koha-screenshot-update-chapters-9zvo?lang=en
14:15:29 <aude_c[m]> for anyone who wants to continue helping with replacing screenshots
14:15:40 <caroline> Ok the framapad won't be there forever, I only made one for 30 days
14:15:53 <caroline> So maybe we should add it to the docs projects wiki page?
14:16:09 <caroline> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Documentation_Team#Projects
14:16:11 <aude_c[m]> Right, we'll see how many of us continue doing it. If it's not a huge group, it will work without
14:16:27 <aude_c[m]> Yes, that would be the other option
14:17:44 <aude_c[m]> One of the main question from Hackfest participants was: why aren't the new screenshots in the 22.11 manual?
14:18:10 <caroline> oh we'd have to cherry-pick the changes
14:18:24 <caroline> since we're now working on the 23.05 manual
14:18:39 <aude_c[m]> And the answer was: I don't know how to do that, and Martin / Matt B thought weren't sure I could do it with the tools I use
14:19:02 <aude_c[m]> Is that something you do, Caroline? Otherwise I will ask my colleagues again another time
14:19:13 <caroline> Yes it's possible through the gitlab interface, that's how I usually do it
14:19:39 <aude_c[m]> Ohh brilliant! Can we talk another time about how it works please?
14:19:53 <caroline> Sure
14:20:06 <caroline> It's in the commit Options > Cherry pick
14:20:22 <aude_c[m]> This actually led me to the (controversial?) thought: do we still need more than one version of the manual?!
14:20:34 <caroline> https://snipboard.io/ndiU8C.jpg
14:20:59 <caroline> Oof, that is a big question
14:21:23 <aude_c[m]> Maybe one for when more people are around?
14:21:33 <caroline> I know a lot of people look into the manual for their own version
14:21:40 <caroline> I think the Koha interface also links directly to the version manual
14:21:53 <aude_c[m]> It would simplify a lot of things if we only had one version of the manual
14:22:03 <aude_c[m]> It would always be the most up to date, for a start
14:22:20 <caroline> But if something changes, it might not be the same in you koha vs the manual?
14:22:27 <caroline> *your
14:22:29 <aude_c[m]> yes
14:22:45 <aude_c[m]> that's one of the points in the "con" column
14:22:54 * ashimema wondered about adding tags into one manual to say when features were added.. as aposed to having a manual per version
14:23:32 <ashimema> but I'm not sure how well it would fly
14:23:33 <ashimema> is this a question around backports..
14:23:34 <ashimema> I'm late to the party today.. tooooooo many meetings
14:23:39 <caroline> It also links into the reorganization david wants to do
14:23:47 <aude_c[m]> yes, but Caroline also just told me I can cherry pick from the GitLab interface (super useful, thank you!)
14:24:22 <caroline> ashimema : https://snipboard.io/ndiU8C.jpg
14:24:36 <ashimema> we have an rmaint for each koha code branch for a reason.. it's a big job keeping on top of it all... perhaps docs should consider a similar recognition of team organisation
14:24:44 <ashimema> ooh.. cool
14:24:57 <ashimema> I didn't know cherry-picking in the gitlab UI worked 🙂
14:25:36 <ashimema> nice
14:25:53 <caroline> I only tried it via terminal once... I wanted to stay on top of it this cycle... did not stay on top if it :(
14:26:04 * ashimema thinks we need a docs team drive to get some manual rmaints to help with the waterfalling.
14:26:15 <aude_c[m]> Regarding rmaint for Koha manual: it's an idea. Though considering our numbers right now, it sounds rather ambitious! :D
14:26:27 <caroline> aude_c[m], that's what I keep telling ashimema lol!
14:26:31 <aude_c[m]> We do need a Docs team drive
14:26:43 <ashimema> haha.. it's the same in all community.
14:26:44 <aude_c[m]> *recruitment drive
14:26:44 <caroline> we are 3-4 at the most at any point
14:26:49 <ashimema> never enough people, never enough time
14:27:23 <aude_c[m]> yep
14:27:30 <caroline> I thought the screenshot extravaganza might help recruit
14:28:03 <ashimema> how much of a review process is there in the manual submissions.. I gave Aude the permissions to merge stuff at hackfest and hopefully that's helping to spread the load a little
14:28:35 <ashimema> cherry-picking down is in her gift now too with those rights I imagine. .. so at least that's two of you looking at it/thinking about it now.
14:28:49 <caroline> Not much honestly... I merge all my own stuff too
14:29:02 <caroline> If there is an error, we find it down the way and correct it
14:29:12 <aude_c[m]> Screenshot extravaganza and recruitment: yes. And I think it's a start; we need to sustain it. We could keep in touch with that group, do more to promote Docs in various places, have "intro to Docs" sessions like the bug sign-off ones, ...
14:29:12 <caroline> it's not like code where it can break something
14:29:15 <ashimema> well.. if it works, don't knock it I say
14:29:21 <ashimema> I trust you guys 😜
14:29:38 <Joubu> Do you document the steps to create the screenshots?
14:30:12 <aude_c[m]> Lucy was given the same permissions and we already agreed we should not merge our own requests but merge each others'. So Caroline, happy to merge yours if you want.
14:30:46 <caroline> aude_c[m], ok we can do it that way
14:31:05 <aude_c[m]> @joubu: there are some explanations on the Editing Koha manual page https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Editing_the_Koha_Manual#Adding_screenshots
14:31:05 <huginn> aude_c[m]: I'll give you the answer as soon as RDA is ready
14:31:05 <caroline> how to add screenshots is here https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Editing_the_Koha_Manual#Adding_screenshots but I never do it via the interface so not sure if it's still good
14:31:26 <aude_c[m]> s/://, s/Editing_the_Koha_Manual/Editing\_the\_Koha\_Manual/, s/Adding_screenshots/Adding\_screenshots/
14:31:40 <Joubu> I mean, "for screenshot xxx you need to do that, then..."
14:31:40 <aude_c[m]> I updated that before Hackfest
14:31:55 <caroline> Joubu, no not in that way
14:32:03 <Joubu> it will be useful if we want to automate that later
14:32:17 <caroline> Currently we do it in the human way
14:32:42 <Joubu> wasn't it a plan to automate them?
14:32:43 <aude_c[m]> (Every time I check that page though, I am very tempted to completely change its structure)
14:32:55 <aude_c[m]> That's the next agenda item ;)
14:33:09 <caroline> Joubu, there is idea but no plan
14:33:10 <Joubu> sorry!
14:33:22 <caroline> it's fine we can talk about it
14:33:35 <caroline> #info Automated screenshot idea
14:34:04 * ashimema was about to play with Cypress Studio... looks cool.
14:34:11 * ashimema must not let himself get distracted
14:34:18 <aude_c[m]> What do we do? Do we need David? And a way to talk other by typing everything?
14:34:34 <caroline> I know you and David have tried it, but there has never been an explanation of how to do it for the rest of us
14:34:49 <aude_c[m]> The four of you interested in getting together to go over the details?
14:35:31 <aude_c[m]> And getting to the point where we in the Docs team can start testing the idea? (and see how we can help to get there)
14:36:07 <caroline> I know long term, it's better for the manual, but we already have trouble recruiting, if we have to program stuff too it will not help our numbers
14:36:10 <Joubu> I would like to (have time and) look at how we (devs) could provide the doc team and easy "framework" to write the steps to generate the screenshots
14:36:39 <Joubu> it will not be proper programming
14:37:04 <Joubu> I am going to show you some easy step, from an existing file:
14:37:07 <Joubu> cy.visit("/cgi-bin/koha/erm/agreements"); (you go there)
14:37:10 <caroline> ok, your answer to the cypress question before the meeting scared me lol!
14:37:11 <Joubu> cy.contains("New agreement").click();
14:37:15 <Joubu> you click "new agreement"
14:37:31 <Joubu> cy.get("#agreement_name").type("your agreement name");
14:37:41 <Joubu> you fill the node #agreement_name with "your agreement name"
14:37:46 <Joubu> cy.get("#agreements_add").contains("Submit").click();
14:37:54 <Joubu> you click the submit button in the #agreements_node
14:38:08 <Joubu> if you have basic knowledge of HTML you can write that
14:38:21 <ashimema> OK.. if I'm understanding it right.. cypress studio will even let you 'record a browser session' and it'll write most of that stuff for you..
14:38:25 <caroline> Is this all already in the tests you have to write for testing Koha?
14:38:58 <caroline> Could we just add some lines to the existing tests to make screenshots too?
14:38:59 <Joubu> those lines are coming from t/cypress/integration/ERM/Agreements_spec.ts, that is in Koha, yes
14:39:10 <ashimema> so rather than writing the above.. you click 'start' in the studio.. then you browse around the app as normal up to the point where you need the screenshot. then you hit stop and out pops the automated test code to get you to that point..
14:39:12 <Joubu> only the ERM module is covered by those cypress tests
14:39:26 <ashimema> tieing it in to actually slotting those screenshots into the manual.. that's another thing
14:39:39 <aude_c[m]> ... but we could try?
14:39:39 <Joubu> ashimema: the problem with those tools is the selector, if they are too specific it is a nightmare to maintain
14:39:50 <ashimema> good call about adding them into our existing tests.. I like that
14:39:59 <ashimema> yeah.. i've not tried it yet
14:40:07 <caroline> I tried something similar selenium? but it was *that* intuitive
14:40:18 <Joubu> caroline: the idea to to provide you something easy to use/write
14:40:18 <caroline> the second something changes in the page it breaks
14:40:22 <Joubu> is to*
14:40:30 <Joubu> selenium sucks
14:40:42 <caroline> ok lol!
14:41:32 <Joubu> ashimema and I will have a look, but what davidnz started is the way to go
14:41:33 <caroline> can we set up a video meeting with you and david and aude and whoever else wants to try and you can set us up?
14:41:57 <caroline> it's not linked to ktd is it?
14:42:03 <Joubu> yes, but I will need to have a look first
14:42:15 <Joubu> everything is in ktd for that
14:42:25 <Joubu> (almost)
14:42:42 <Joubu> the problem is the sample data, the condition to generate the screenshot, etc.
14:42:45 <caroline> so we can't do it from a local installation
14:43:02 <Joubu> we don't want you to automate that, it should be done an other way
14:43:42 <Joubu> ktd has everything in it, you can setup a local install to make it ready for cypress
14:44:01 <ashimema> I'm happy to join whatever meeting or help wherever I can
14:44:29 <ashimema> though 23.05 is rapidly approaching and I know Joubu and I are busting a gut already trying to get a bunch of stuff into it still.. so time is.. erm.. always a challenge
14:44:54 <Joubu> caroline: I really don't want to force you (the doc team), if you prefer to continue to do that manually I am fine with that
14:45:06 <Joubu> It means more time for other things :)
14:45:14 <Joubu> But I am happy to help if you want to have a try
14:45:17 <caroline> We can meet in the summer maybe?
14:45:19 <Joubu> it's better for the project IMO
14:45:26 <caroline> after 23.05 comes out
14:45:50 <ashimema> I'm game for that
14:46:00 <ashimema> there tends to be a summer lul in activity
14:46:03 <aude_c[m]> end of June? (she says selfishly because she's on holiday until 22 June)
14:46:28 <Joubu> yes
14:47:30 <caroline> week of june 26? I'll have to double check because june 24 and july 1st are holidays and since they fall on a weekend they will be reported sometime that week
14:48:20 <aude_c[m]> works for me. We'll need to find a time David can make
14:48:28 <caroline> does someone want to organize this?
14:48:38 <aude_c[m]> yes, I can
14:48:45 <caroline> cool thanks!
14:49:02 <caroline> I'll double check the holiday dates and email you
14:49:07 <aude_c[m]> So Joubu, Martin, Caroline, David, me, probably Lucy, cait?
14:49:18 <aude_c[m]> Thanks. I'll try and get in touch with David
14:49:22 * ashimema has no idea when his hols are yet.. it's been a nuts year
14:49:47 <caroline> will any of you be at kohacon?
14:49:52 <aude_c[m]> Your girls at school until mid-July?
14:50:05 <aude_c[m]> Don't know... Will you?
14:50:46 <caroline> probably... they haven't opened the registration yet afaik, but as soon as they do, i'll start harassing my boss ;)
14:51:14 <aude_c[m]> Haha! I thought I'd heard the call for papers was open
14:51:14 <Joubu> I will try to be there, yes
14:51:25 <ashimema> 21 July my girls are off..
14:52:08 <caroline> ashimema, I think last time you wanted to talk about video calls?
14:52:09 <aude_c[m]> oh, the call for papers closes this week
14:52:28 <ashimema> Well.. not me per say..
14:52:50 <aude_c[m]> I thought it was on the agenda by popular request :D
14:52:52 <ashimema> I wondered if a different medium would help you guys..
14:53:01 <caroline> ok I had an action point to add it to the agenda, but I couln't remember who wanted to talk about it
14:53:10 <ashimema> I'm sure we could donate some zoom time.. or there are other tools available
14:53:35 <ashimema> mostly it was a .. would it help to have video calls instead of text meetings?
14:53:51 <ashimema> if you do though.. it would be good to get them minuted by someone who attends 😜
14:54:15 <ashimema> though I don't know who reads the existing minutes.. we don't often add actions much
14:54:31 <caroline> I sometimes go back to the logs
14:55:04 <aude_c[m]> I mostly use the tagged logs
14:55:04 <ashimema> hell.. there's even jitsi build in to element here
14:55:18 <aude_c[m]> Having someone taking notes shouldn't be too onerous
14:55:34 <aude_c[m]> Oh, that's nice.
14:57:22 <caroline> ok so idea stage at this point
14:57:34 <caroline> #idea use video calls rather that IRC for meetings
14:57:45 <aude_c[m]> We could just do it at the next meeting?
14:58:15 <aude_c[m]> I wonder how it works for people who use the old-fashioned way of getting to the Koha channel
14:58:37 <ashimema> might push them to jump to matrix 😜
14:58:45 <ashimema> we can certainly give it a go
14:59:05 <aude_c[m]> yes. But otherwise just sharing a Jitsi link via the meeting page on the Wiki should be straightforward
15:00:36 <caroline> have you used jitsi video before?
15:00:36 <aude_c[m]> yes
15:00:55 <aude_c[m]> On desktop it just works within the browser
15:01:02 <caroline> can you create the link?
15:01:26 <aude_c[m]> Anyone can do it; but if you prefer I do then yes, no problem
15:01:42 <caroline> I've never used it that's why I was asking
15:01:54 <caroline> I use jitsi phone but we use another service for video
15:03:05 <caroline> #info next meeting will be a video call on kitsi
15:03:14 <caroline> #info *jitsi
15:03:39 <aude_c[m]> No problem :)
15:03:56 <caroline> #topic Next meeting
15:04:08 <caroline> should have done that before lol
15:04:15 <aude_c[m]> hehe
15:04:19 <caroline> 4 weeks from now is may 11
15:05:24 <caroline> I've had complaints about the day, apparently some can't make it on thursdays, do we want to try tuesday?
15:06:25 <krimsonkharne[m]> aude_c: can I join you guys for the meeting on using cypress for screenshots? Just to listen in :) I helped with screenshots in Marseille and would be up to try it out
15:07:00 <aude_c[m]> caroline: ok
15:07:17 <aude_c[m]> krimsonkharne: Sure! :)
15:09:18 <caroline> #info Next meeting: 9 May, 2023, 14 UTC
15:09:27 <caroline> #endmeeting