15:10:26 <tcohen> #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 3 June 2015 - part 1
15:10:26 <huginn> Meeting started Wed Jun  3 15:10:26 2015 UTC.  The chair is tcohen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:10:26 <huginn> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:10:26 <huginn> The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_3_june_2015___part_1'
15:10:34 <tcohen> #topic Introductions
15:10:34 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
15:10:40 <tcohen> please introduce yourself with #info
15:10:50 <khall> #info Kyle M Hall, ByWater Solutions
15:10:56 <tcohen> #info Tomas Cohen Arazi, Universidad Nacional de Córdoba
15:10:57 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart
15:11:02 <bgkriegel> #info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel
15:11:05 <ColinC> #info Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe
15:11:16 <AmitG> #info Amit Gupta, Informatics Bangalore, India
15:11:23 <ashimema> #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe
15:11:45 <tcohen> hurry everyone
15:11:50 <tcohen> heh
15:12:33 <mtompset> #info Mark Tompsett
15:12:44 <tcohen> ok then
15:12:47 <tcohen> #topic RM 3.22 comments
15:13:26 <tcohen> I'd like to congratulate everyone for the 3.20, has been pretty solid since the beggining
15:13:34 <tcohen> we are upgrading soon here
15:13:58 <ashimema> tcohen++ we're only as good as our leader ;)
15:14:00 <andreashm> #info Andreas Hedström Mace, Stockholm University Library
15:14:08 <tcohen> the next release might became a major milestone for the project
15:14:21 <tcohen> if we look at the stuff we are trying to have ready soon
15:14:24 * mtompset mumbles, "4.0?"
15:14:46 <tcohen> i'm really excited about all this, and I know most of the community shares this feeling
15:15:23 <nengard> #info Nicole Engard, ByWater Solutions
15:15:37 <tcohen> as someone told me a while back: we need to enjoy developing Koha too, not only bugfixes
15:15:47 * nengard agrees with mtompset
15:15:49 <talljoy> #info Joy Nelson, ByWater Solutions
15:15:50 <tcohen> we need to put our hands on cool new stuff, points of view
15:16:10 <tcohen> most of us have thought what all that means
15:16:18 <tcohen> some are excited to have a RESTful API
15:16:27 <edveal> #info Ed Veal, Bywater Solutions
15:16:41 <tcohen> some because we might be introducing the use of a web framework for some parts of the project
15:16:53 <tcohen> and of course, ElasticSearch :-D
15:17:06 <barton> #info Barton Chittenden, BWS, Louisville, KY, USA
15:17:26 <tcohen> to have all those pieces put together at some point
15:17:39 <tcohen> we need to join efforts, and coordinate actions
15:18:03 <AmitG> tcohen++
15:18:24 <misilot> #info Thomas Misilo, Florida Institute of Technology
15:18:33 <tcohen> we all want Koha to shine more and more on each release
15:18:46 <nengard> koha++
15:18:49 <dani> #info Dani BWS,Cedar Park, TX, USA
15:18:52 <tcohen> so we need to make hard decisions too, because of course several pov are in place on each decision
15:19:14 <tcohen> so
15:19:17 <tcohen> to the point
15:20:04 <tcohen> i think it good be great to have a big picture of what our expectations are for the 3.22 (?) release
15:20:22 <tcohen> i mean what will everyone be working on
15:20:39 <ashimema> sounds good to me.
15:20:54 <tcohen> we have a proof of concept for a restful api on mojo
15:21:08 <tcohen> we have a wip branch on catalyst repo for the elasticsearcg
15:21:11 <tcohen> work
15:21:30 <tcohen> that'd be the next topic i think
15:21:42 <tcohen> so to the point
15:21:59 <tcohen> i'm happy with how promising this looks
15:22:12 <tcohen> and am proposing a 3 week cycle for dev meetings
15:22:33 <tcohen> it'd be awesome to have short scrum-like daily meetings
15:22:40 <tcohen> we can do it informally
15:23:16 <carmen> #info Carmen Hernandez, Bywater Solutions
15:23:28 <tcohen> #info the RM will try to keep a 3-week frecquency for dev meetings
15:23:54 <tcohen> questions?
15:23:55 <wahanui> questions are good :)
15:24:04 <tcohen> wahanui: you are right
15:24:04 <wahanui> ...but wahanui is a bot|a repository of important and useful and accurate information or at least partially slow.|a little bit creepy.|right sometimes|a strange duck|a bot....
15:24:13 <Joubu> I would be good to know who is working on what
15:24:46 <tcohen> would you all agree to have a shared Trello board where we share what we are working on?
15:24:50 <Joubu> and to have a planning
15:25:09 <ashimema> Trello is great for this sort of thing.
15:25:16 <Joubu> We already tried a trello board, it was not a success
15:25:17 <nengard> tcohen would would we give our info to to be included on that?
15:25:23 <barton> Part of our daily work-flow at BWS is to send out a "what I'm working on" email, this works fairly well in place of actual stand-up meetings.
15:25:35 <nengard> I thought trello was a success at the hackfest
15:25:44 <Joubu> (Maybe prefer http://libreboard.com/ ?)
15:25:57 <tcohen> we used/use trello for several things
15:26:04 <tcohen> my trello board was a mess
15:26:10 <tcohen> but Katrin's shined
15:26:11 <tcohen> :-D
15:26:38 <tcohen> i think each team/company has its own tools for this
15:26:53 <tcohen> but we might have a general board to have the whole picture
15:27:05 <tcohen> so on each meeting we can ask about progress, etc
15:27:36 <andreashm> Slack?
15:27:49 <misilot> Possibly this: https://www.atlassian.com/solutions/agile-ready (I haven't used this product from Atlassian but I have used others) and free for open source (https://www.atlassian.com/software/views/open-source-license-request)
15:27:51 <tcohen> nengard: i'll add anyone interested
15:28:21 <Joubu> (libreboard is open source and can be hosted, that's why I suggest that, but not the point now)
15:29:12 <andreashm> Whatever board if would be good if it was open so interested parties can see what's going on
15:29:27 <ashimema> The real point is making sure we all use it and maintain it..
15:29:29 <tcohen> libreboard looks good
15:29:34 <tcohen> yeah
15:29:43 <ashimema> the wiki RFC's would work, if everyone actually looked at them.. for example.
15:29:57 <nengard> "if" is the key word :(
15:30:19 <ashimema> I like the kanban approach of trello et al personally, means you can get the 'jist' of somthings state at a glance
15:30:20 <barton> I agree that which tool we use isn't as important as actually using the tool we choose...
15:30:26 <andreashm> RFC's are hard to read to see what is going on. wall of text.
15:30:45 <nengard> barton++
15:30:56 <nengard> ashimema++
15:31:04 <Joubu> We need 1 entry point for all wip, a whatever-board is excellent for that.
15:31:05 <tcohen> ashimema++
15:31:10 <Joubu> ok, same as ashimema :)
15:31:30 <andreashm> ashimema++
15:31:33 <tcohen> proposal: I'll set a TRello board for what we are working on for the 3.22 release cycle
15:31:46 <tcohen> if anyone has a better idea, we just move there
15:31:52 <ColinC> helps sometimes to clarify what x is tracking
15:32:18 <ashimema> there's two things to track that state of.. Proposition -> Coding -> QA -> Push.. is one workflow.. but often things sit in the 'Coding' pile for a long time without much update.. that's where the meetings come in.. a vocal.. yup.. we are actualyl still working on it.. few weeks away.. type thing
15:32:19 * mtompset agrees that no one reads RFCs.
15:32:41 * khall also confirms that
15:32:53 * nengard does for documentation sake :)
15:32:57 <barton> I also think that posting blockers is an important part of running standup meetings. Having an established time/place to get questions looked at can be very powerful.
15:32:58 <nengard> but that's after it's in Koha
15:33:27 * mtompset notes that nengard is a special exception. :)
15:33:34 <tcohen> #info Tomas will set a provisional Trello board where people will document what are they working on at a given time
15:33:47 * nengard likes being special
15:33:48 <ashimema> the RFC's are an important step.. but they are entirely about drawing up a spec and agreeing upon it.. they shouldn't be used after that fro tracking current state.. once an RFC has been agreed we souhld think of it as effectively locked... and then we use trello or whatever to track the actual dev progress
15:33:54 <nengard> tcohen++
15:33:58 <tcohen> #info this could be moved to another tool if someone volunteers to set it
15:34:04 <ashimema> nengard++ I agree there..
15:34:09 <khall> ashimema++
15:34:10 <ashimema> blockers are important to get out in the open
15:34:39 <indradg> #info Indranil Das Gupta, India
15:34:57 <ashimema> barton++ even, it was you who mentioned blockers
15:34:58 <tcohen> should we have a column for blockers? (sounds messy, though)
15:35:31 <ashimema> thinks like the accounts re-write.. it's not yet in koha.. but is a major blocker for a whole bunch of us now saceed to go anywhere near accounts for worry of having to re-write when it goes in ;)
15:36:15 <ashimema> I would say a 'Blocked' column mre like tcohen.
15:36:20 <khall> indeed, there are a number of open bugs that the accounts rewrite would resolve with no other changes
15:36:34 <tcohen> maybe we could set mondays to talk about blockers, informally
15:36:39 <ashimema> so, things that can't move on yet sit in there
15:36:45 <ashimema> sounds good to me
15:37:00 <pianohacker> here but not putting my name in, have to disappear for a conference call in 20
15:37:00 <barton> I like that idea.
15:37:27 <indradg> sounds good
15:39:17 <khall> good idea
15:39:49 <tcohen> can i say we agreed to explicitly talk about blockers on mondays?
15:40:24 <ashimema> ++
15:40:44 <khall> yes, will there be a time window, or will it be all day?
15:41:13 <pianohacker> brb coffee
15:41:48 <barton> I think that it should be all day -- that way we don't have to worry so much about the international audience.
15:42:46 <tcohen> #info mondays will become "blockers day", we'll raise concerns about possible blockers and try to coordinate efforts for fixing them
15:42:50 <barton> maybe we could tag the blockers in IRC, to make them easier to filter from the logs.
15:42:51 <khall> barton: I agreed time zone issues make it tough, but I'm afraid if we don't narrow down the times to one or two windows we won't be effective
15:43:20 <ashimema> I'm almost tempted to say it's mroe about having a key contact than a time and place..
15:43:43 <ashimema> hmm..
15:43:48 * ashimema thinks loudly
15:44:05 <tcohen> i think it is fair to assume the RM will be available during his office hours to account possible bockers and as fr help if needed
15:44:18 <khall> if we can get a group or groups of devs to agree to some general times that would go a long way
15:44:23 <barton> If we used something like "BLOCKER: " to as a marker, could we then filter those out to an email to koha-dev?
15:44:46 <tcohen> khall: +1
15:44:59 <indradg> khall +1
15:45:12 <barton> khall +1
15:45:32 <barton> ['course he hears that from me all day long]
15:45:42 <khall> : )
15:45:59 <tcohen> so, we could say the dev team members should send alerts on possible blockers to the dev list with a BLOCKER mark on the subject
15:46:17 <tcohen> as barton said
15:46:35 <tcohen> well, as ashimema said, this is a methodological problem
15:47:10 <mtompset> asynchronous communication does work too. Not everything needs sychronous.
15:47:13 <khall> can't hurt, but I like the idea of the blocker trello column to quickly see all those blockers at once best.
15:47:25 <tcohen> i'd say anyone willing to help with blockers should show up on "blocker day" to help and discuss solutions
15:47:44 <ashimema> sounds good
15:48:04 <tcohen> and yes, we will have that column
15:48:39 <tcohen> #info 'blocker days' are for people willing to help with blockers to show up and discuss solutions to blocker bugs
15:48:53 <khall> can we start an dev-list email thread for devs to list the times they can be available? That way we can come up with specific windows where a decent sized group of devs will be around
15:49:12 <tcohen> would you send that email?
15:49:17 <tcohen> :-D
15:50:05 <khall> I'm writing at right now ; )
15:50:12 <tcohen> ok, moving on
15:50:25 <tcohen> next topic is too wide
15:50:31 <tcohen> #topic Planning the 3.22 release
15:51:13 <tcohen> we already talked about how will we deal with big stuff we are working on
15:51:53 <tcohen> so I think it is time to hear from people working on that stuff, how is it going, what do they think about the timeframe fr the release and their work
15:52:10 <tcohen> we have only two things listed
15:52:19 <tcohen> RESTful aPI and ElasticSearch integration
15:53:25 <tcohen> we should make a methodological decision
15:53:36 <tcohen> should we start discussing them now?
15:54:09 <tcohen> only hear about their statuses and schedule a meeting soon (like next week) to discuss/make decisions on each one?
15:55:00 <khall> We could throw the accounts rewrite in there as well
15:55:16 <barton> nod.
15:55:57 <mtompset> where shall I ask my tiny question? :)
15:56:03 <mtompset> about where to put the function? :)
15:57:37 <pastebot> "mtompset" at pasted "Where should this go?" (10 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/132
15:57:56 <tcohen> is anyone working on the restful api willing to talk about it now?
15:58:16 <tcohen> we need to know what are the next steps
15:58:55 <khall> it still needs signoff
15:59:12 <tcohen> khall: it is not clear to me that it isn't just a POC
15:59:39 <barton> POC?
15:59:39 <wahanui> POC is Proof Of Concept
15:59:42 <khall> tcohen: it started off as a POC, but it isn't any longer afaik
16:00:16 <indradg> oh! /me was harboring it was POC and stayed away from it! mea culpa
16:00:27 <khall> robin and co have been working on making sure it'll be package ready
16:00:51 <tcohen> ok, I propose we schedule a meeting for next week so jajm shows, and explains us the implementation details, and people have the chance to discuss it
16:01:34 <tcohen> anyone from biblibre can confirm he could be available for that?
16:02:15 <tcohen> once we agree that's the way to do it, RESTful endpoints will grow like grass
16:02:28 <tcohen> so it is important we have feedback soon
16:02:39 <ashimema> I'll try to show up for that.. I really need to find some time to have a play with it..
16:03:01 <tcohen> i'd like to have someone involved on that work here
16:03:12 <indradg> tcohen +1
16:03:31 <ashimema> I think to go with it, it's important to have it and how to code on it, well documented..
16:03:42 <ashimema> I didn't feel we'de reached that point last I looked..
16:04:06 <ashimema> big for instance.. the whole idea of swagger is that it's test/documentation driven development..
16:04:11 <tcohen> moving into using a web framework like mojo has several implications for the project, so it is not as simple as "this patchset works"
16:04:20 <ashimema> i.e, you write the documentation and a json schema file first..
16:04:21 <barton> I wonder if we could come up with a way to announce progress on large projects...
16:04:37 <ashimema> then write code to forfil it.. i don't think that message had really been gotten accross yet.
16:06:11 <hkh> bye
16:06:14 <khall> ashimema: I'm sure anything you can add to the bug would be most welcome
16:06:27 <khall> or wherever you think is most suitable
16:06:27 <ashimema> I've generally been adding to the wiki page so far..
16:06:36 <ashimema> really need to find the time to sit down a get to konw the bug ;)
16:06:46 <tcohen> ok
16:07:01 <ashimema> but yes.. I'll add to it
16:07:05 <barton> *be* the bug, ashimema :-)
16:07:10 <ashimema> and attend a meet if we have one ;)
16:07:25 <tcohen> #actions Tomas will ask Julian for possible dates for a meeting to discuss/explain his implementation of a RESTful API
16:08:33 <tcohen> is anyone aware of the ES implementation progress?
16:09:55 <tcohen> i think on part 2 we'll have more feedback on this
16:10:19 <tcohen> i need to end the meeting to attend another one with the boss
16:10:23 <tcohen> so moving on
16:10:40 <tcohen> #topic Specific bugs that need feedback
16:11:16 <tcohen> #info Bug 6874 is candidate for early inclusion in the 3.22 cycle
16:11:18 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6874 enhancement, P3, ---, julian.maurice, Passed QA , Attach a file to a MARC record (Was: File upload in MARC)
16:11:44 <tcohen> i'll try to provide feedback on some shortcomings
16:12:03 <tcohen> *i think the implementation has
16:12:07 <mtompset> And marcel has created an umbrella bug report for following up on it.
16:12:13 <tcohen> exactly
16:12:34 <mtompset> Oh, and it is dependent on Bug 5010. :)
16:12:34 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5010 normal, P5 - low, ---, mtompset, Passed QA , Fix OPACBaseURL to include protocol
16:12:45 <tcohen> #info Marcel has conveniently created an umbrella bug for fixing all remaining stuff
16:12:49 <reiveune> bye
16:13:15 <tcohen> i should have put 5010 on that list, but it will be impossible now (no time left for me)
16:13:49 <mtompset> I have yet to actually do any coding for the QA feedback on it thus far.
16:14:05 <tcohen> i'm not sure how it got so complicated
16:14:24 <tcohen> as far as i can see there are several use cases that need to be taken into account
16:14:49 <tcohen> and I think we should decouple the transport protocol from the URL
16:14:56 <mtompset> I was thinking of a rewrite, since I don't like the UI myself, but I didn't want to slow down its inclusion.
16:15:09 <tcohen> i promise to discuss it explicitly soon
16:15:14 <tcohen> something like
16:15:59 <tcohen> OPACProtocolConfig = http|https|httpbehindhttpsproxy|etc
16:16:09 <tcohen> anyway
16:16:22 <tcohen> anyone with something else to add?
16:16:24 <ashimema> 5010.. I tihnk push it soonre rather than later and lets fix it during the cycle if there are any further issues..
16:16:39 <tcohen> ashimema: I agree
16:16:42 <ashimema> it's well tested.. just touches lots of area we probabl won't spot otherwise.
16:16:53 <mtompset> Actually, tcohen. I was thinking of adding a SPLIT type to system preferences.
16:17:11 <tcohen> i think we should think explicitly on each use case
16:17:32 <tcohen> and make the sysprefs help the user figure which use case he/she's in
16:17:45 <tcohen> but I agree with ashimema, push soon, fix soon
16:18:17 <mtompset> A push now, gives us 2-3 months to fix. :)
16:18:17 <tcohen> please ping me if you feel your work is lagging too much
16:18:44 <tcohen> you are really too productive for a single person to go through all your work
16:19:21 <tcohen> =D
16:19:24 <tcohen> ok
16:19:46 <tcohen> #topic Set time of next meeting
16:20:12 <tcohen> #info we agreed to keep this two-part meeting schema, and a 3-week cycle
16:20:45 <tcohen> and to end this meeting
16:20:52 <tcohen> a message from my boss:
16:21:07 <mtompset> Who is too productive?
16:21:14 <tcohen> keep the good work guys http://snag.gy/OEZ3d.jpg
16:21:19 <tcohen> #endmeeting