21:01:47 <kidclamp> #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 10 May 2017
21:01:47 <huginn_> Meeting started Wed May 10 21:01:47 2017 UTC.  The chair is kidclamp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:01:47 <huginn_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
21:01:47 <huginn_> The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_10_may_2017'
21:01:57 <kidclamp> #topic Introductions
21:01:57 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
21:02:05 <kidclamp> #info Nick Clemens, ByWater Solutions
21:02:13 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart
21:02:49 <phette23> #info Eric Phetteplace, California College of the Arts
21:03:13 <bag> #info brendan gallagher bywater
21:03:24 <rangi> #info chris cormack, catalyst
21:03:38 <cait1> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
21:03:43 <thd> #info, Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
21:03:49 <bag> heya cait1
21:03:56 <cait1> heya bag :)
21:04:13 <kidclamp> #topic Announcements
21:04:14 <bag> welcome back cait
21:04:18 <bag> :P
21:04:25 <cait> ;)
21:04:35 <kidclamp> today was/is GBSD, been a bit slow, but still plenty out there for interested folks
21:05:31 <kidclamp> we had a meeting this morning, Joubu is putting together a taskforce for the next release, and could use some help in translating emails/form
21:05:51 <kidclamp> anyone else?
21:06:12 <Joubu> release is soon
21:06:13 <Joubu> 100 test to QA
21:06:26 <Joubu> 170 to test => 50 bugs with patches attached
21:07:03 <Joubu> 2 criticals and 21 majors
21:07:11 <Joubu> release is in 2weeks
21:07:44 <Joubu> I can draw a picture, but I am very bad at drawing
21:07:45 <kidclamp> #info lots to do for upcoming release, many hands make light work :-)
21:08:42 <kidclamp> thanks Joubu
21:08:50 <kidclamp> anyone else?
21:08:51 <thd> What would happen if some release critical bugs are not patched by the release date?
21:09:23 <kidclamp> release delayed
21:09:24 <Joubu> we will force the one that introduce the regression to reorder the wiki
21:10:03 <kidclamp> #topic Update from the Release manager (17.05)
21:10:03 <cait> hehe
21:10:27 <kidclamp> no Kyle here, but he is pushing stuff and look toward the freeze
21:10:34 <thd> If and only if you can identify the source of the regression and you should then know the fix ;)
21:11:00 <kidclamp> #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers
21:11:04 <kidclamp> anything cait?
21:11:11 <rangi> really, released delayed?
21:11:17 <kidclamp> I doubt it rangi
21:11:22 <kidclamp> we would fix it
21:11:22 <rangi> i much prefer the revert
21:11:31 <cait> nothing much - still plan on pushing hea2 before 15th
21:11:32 <rangi> you cant delay on time based releases, thatas the whole point
21:11:35 <rangi> :)
21:11:36 <cait> and then have string freeze and release on 22nd
21:12:13 <Joubu> (the 2 criticals are quite small patches)
21:12:52 <Joubu> Heav2 has been backported to 3.22 today by jajm apparently
21:12:57 <kidclamp> yes, course reserves and another - and not blockers
21:13:13 <cait> yeah, he was faster
21:13:23 <cait> so now I really have to get to it
21:13:26 <Joubu> which will be the last release of the 3.22.x series, so good to have it in
21:13:36 <Joubu> oh! And the last of 3.x! :)
21:13:42 <cait> wow yep
21:13:46 <kidclamp> #info 16.11 - freeze on 15th, release on 22nd
21:14:03 <kidclamp> #info 3.22 - hea v2 has been backported
21:14:20 <kidclamp> #info next 3.22.x will be final
21:14:52 <kidclamp> #topic Updates from the QA team
21:15:46 <kidclamp> As Joubu said, many bugs to hit before the release
21:16:10 <kidclamp> all help is appreciated
21:16:16 <Joubu> only 30 bugs in the NQA queue actually, others are enh
21:16:29 <cait> bug 11122 needs sign-off ... please? I did a follow up, so am out.
21:16:29 <huginn_> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11122 minor, P5 - low, ---, fridolin.somers, Needs Signoff , Fix display of publication year/copyrightdate and publishercode on various pages in acquisitions
21:17:27 <kidclamp> Oh, and we sent an email to devel re:acquisition changes, I think the solution seems good to all so far, but any thoughts should be given soon
21:18:00 <cait> kidclamp: i always thought that at some point rrp was misunderstood as replacement cost - because there is certainly some mix up
21:18:13 <cait> having it separate makes sense
21:18:47 <kidclamp> yes, should make things simpler, or at least more logical
21:19:15 <kidclamp> anything else?
21:20:00 <Joubu> If you want me to fix it, you will need to give me exact things
21:20:19 <kidclamp> just rewrite acq and make it better Joubu
21:20:20 <Joubu> like: how to fix the update, which screens are wrong, what is copied where, etc.
21:20:32 <kidclamp> yes, we will cover it in detail
21:21:14 <kidclamp> #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
21:22:00 <kidclamp> floor is open for anyone :-)
21:22:27 <Joubu> As I said this morning, I have drafted an idea I got recently
21:22:40 <Joubu> kind of "how to write a patch" step-by-step
21:22:51 <Joubu> like tutorial
21:22:58 <kidclamp> Joubu++
21:23:14 <Joubu> I have to think a bit more about it, but I think that would be useful for anybody that wants to get involved
21:23:32 <Joubu> no need to ask anything to anybody, just execute a file and follow the instruction
21:23:45 <cait> we probably should revise the wiki pages too
21:23:46 <Joubu> I am thinking of a .pl and .tt to copy on a kohadevbox
21:24:00 <cait> remove outdated information and maybe merge some pages etc
21:24:11 <kidclamp> I promised long ago to update the 'I want to help page' and still plan too :-)
21:24:18 <Joubu> with different checks we could confirm the commit mesg is correct, the diff make sense, etc.
21:24:25 <cait> Joubu++
21:24:26 <kidclamp> some of the git workflow pages are out of date (mailing patches) etc
21:24:44 <Joubu> then git bz attach to a given bug number and git apply, SO and reupload
21:25:04 <Joubu> that way you did the whole workflow
21:25:26 <kidclamp> #info Joubo working on a 'write a patch' tutorial
21:25:31 <Joubu> Let me know if you are aware of any common issues beginners have (rangi maybe?)
21:25:42 <kidclamp> [off] he is going to replace us all with bots!
21:26:00 <kidclamp> getting back to a clean git when things go awry
21:26:08 <cait> [off] looking forward to finally have some more time :)
21:26:14 <kidclamp> cleaning out updates from your DB after testing
21:26:24 <rangi> will do
21:27:15 <kidclamp> moving on
21:27:26 <kidclamp> #topic Review of coding guidelines
21:27:40 <kidclamp> phette23 want to take the floor?
21:27:57 <phette23> sure
21:28:18 <phette23> I don't have much to add beyond the guidelines linked in the minutes
21:28:39 <phette23> I think it would be good to have some policy in place but am not super opinionated about the specifics
21:29:03 <thd> Now that my internet is working again after a month of no service I have posted an alternative in the wiki somewhat too quickly in the same wiki page.
21:29:05 <phette23> so the alternative someone added referencing CMoS is fine, for instance, if more verbose than I would've written
21:29:24 <phette23> ok thanks for that
21:30:17 <thd> Sorry, that I did not have time to clean up what I wrote better.
21:30:17 <kidclamp> I think maybe the alternative provides more guidance, but the original is more compact and suited as a guideline
21:30:28 <thd> I am at work today.
21:30:29 <cait> can we get the link?
21:30:30 <kidclamp> add that and then refer to the style manual
21:30:41 <phette23> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Draft:Gender_Neutral_Pronouns
21:30:49 <kidclamp> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Draft:Gender_Neutral_Pronouns Gender Neutral Pronouns Proposal
21:30:56 <kidclamp> sorry cait :-)
21:30:57 <thd> My objection to the original is mostly that the example is ungrammatical.
21:31:04 <cait> no need, i was lazy :)
21:31:24 <phette23> ok
21:31:30 <cait> i think fixing the original, but keep it nice and short would be good
21:31:33 <phette23> how about I update example with your language
21:31:38 <cait> fix the example int he first
21:31:44 <phette23> and link to CMoS also but not spell out all 9 ways
21:32:05 <phette23> which are great but really lengthen things
21:32:20 <kidclamp> I think we can vote then on the guideline as written and the example and additional info can be adjusted
21:32:33 <rangi> i agree
21:32:33 <kidclamp> When referring to a person who could be of any gender, you should use the words they/them/their. This goes for code comments, text in templates, and strings in tests.
21:32:48 <thd> I have included a fix for the example as suggested by Mark Tompsett.
21:33:28 <kidclamp> Alright, calling for vote if no more discussion
21:33:41 <Joubu> the added part is really too complicated for me
21:33:42 <thd> I would like to add something else.
21:33:44 <Joubu> nobody will read that
21:34:55 <Joubu> We needed to vote on something and the terms have been modified 40min before the vote?
21:34:56 <thd> The plural singular as the preferred solution by many seems to raise problems for people for whom English is a second language.
21:35:03 <kidclamp> mostly agreed joubu, I think a short guideline is necessary but a link to more info doesn't hurt
21:35:45 <cait> I think it's a good thing to learn about
21:36:04 <cait> that you can use they/their etc. to be gender neutral
21:36:13 <cait> so should not stop us
21:36:31 <thd> The issue for some people understanding the use of they was raised on the mailing list.
21:37:17 <cait> I think I said the same thing there :)
21:37:26 <kidclamp> agreed thd, but I think most accepted it in lack of better suggestion
21:37:38 <kidclamp> /option
21:37:57 <thd> Sadly my internet was not working enough for me to read the mailing list.
21:37:58 <rangi> i think in this case (in fact almost every case) less is more
21:38:28 <rangi> english grammar is ridiculous, lets just focus on not causing offense with gender, not fix all grammar problesm
21:38:31 <thd> Exactly, omitting the pronoun is usually better.
21:38:47 <rangi> singular they is a good rule
21:38:57 <kidclamp> When referring to a person who could be of any gender, you should use the words they/them/their or omit the pronoun.
21:39:06 <rangi> that works
21:39:11 <phette23> yes I like that statement
21:39:12 <Joubu> I'd suggest to vote for what phette23's proposal
21:39:25 <Joubu> the 3 short lines, well explained and understandable
21:39:27 <thd> Singular they is easiest to implement but causes ambiguity problems.
21:39:38 <Joubu> then thd you can send an email to the list to suggest something else if you like
21:40:16 <kidclamp> okay, going to start the vote
21:40:33 <thd> I will do that and favour endorsing the original with a preference for at least correcting the grammar in the examples.
21:41:34 <kidclamp> #startvote Should we add a guideline for use of gender neutral pronouns stating "When referring to a person who could be of any gender, you should use the words they/them/their or avoid the pronoun. This goes for code comments, text in templates, and strings in tests."? Yes, No
21:41:34 <huginn_> Begin voting on: Should we add a guideline for use of gender neutral pronouns stating "When referring to a person who could be of any gender, you should use the words they/them/their or avoid the pronoun. This goes for code comments, text in templates, and strings in tests."? Valid vote options are Yes, No.
21:41:34 <huginn_> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
21:41:43 <kidclamp> #vote Yes
21:41:48 <Joubu> #vote Yes
21:41:49 <wizzyrea> #vote yes
21:41:49 <rangi> #vote yes
21:41:54 <thd> #vote yes
21:41:58 <phette23> #vote Yes
21:42:05 <bag> #vote yes
21:42:25 <kidclamp> last call
21:42:34 <cait> #vote yes
21:42:35 <cait> phew
21:42:38 <kidclamp> #endvote
21:42:38 <huginn_> Voted on "Should we add a guideline for use of gender neutral pronouns stating "When referring to a person who could be of any gender, you should use the words they/them/their or avoid the pronoun. This goes for code comments, text in templates, and strings in tests."?" Results are
21:42:38 <huginn_> Yes (8): Joubu, wizzyrea, phette23, kidclamp, cait, bag, thd, rangi
21:42:42 <kidclamp> under the wire
21:42:58 * oleonard would have voted yes if he'd been on time
21:43:09 <kidclamp> phette23 - will you add that to the guidleines page?
21:43:15 <phette23> yes will do
21:43:17 <phette23> to be clear
21:43:24 <kidclamp> phette23++
21:43:32 <phette23> is it OK to correct example grammar & use the new statement we voted on?
21:43:43 <phette23> or should I try to maintain the exact draft as presently exists
21:43:53 <kidclamp> yes, statement as voted, example can be adjusted
21:44:06 <phette23> ok thanks everyone
21:44:09 <thd> The main point is understood either way ;)
21:44:12 <oleonard> #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, USA
21:44:31 <kidclamp> did you have any announcement oleonard?
21:44:58 <oleonard> Nope.
21:45:07 <kidclamp> jsut wanted to give you a shot :-)
21:45:13 <kidclamp> #topic Set time of next meeting
21:45:17 * oleonard is just happy to be here
21:45:34 <cait> phette23++
21:45:52 <kidclamp> 21 UTC seems to have worked out, I think we can use this in the future too (always nice to see rangi)
21:45:59 <kidclamp> but for next 13?
21:46:30 <kidclamp> two weeks would be 24th
21:46:48 <kidclamp> Wednesday, May 24th, 13 UTC?
21:46:49 <Joubu> I think since last DST that should be 14
21:47:08 <kidclamp> Wednesday, May 24th, 14 UTC?
21:47:13 <Joubu> I do not know :)
21:47:22 <Joubu> just wondering
21:47:30 <kidclamp> 13 is 8 for me, 5 am for bag
21:47:39 <oleonard> Either works well mid & eastern USA
21:47:42 <Joubu> so 14 is better, right?
21:47:59 <bag> if there is baseball I’m there :P
21:48:06 <kidclamp> sounds good to me
21:48:27 * kidclamp is definitely not just sucking up to new RM
21:48:31 <oleonard> Inside baseball maybe
21:48:50 <kidclamp> #info Next meeting: Wednesday, May 24th, 14 UTC
21:49:51 <Joubu> thx kidclamp!
21:49:56 <kidclamp> final chance to get in the minutes and have eternal fame!
21:50:00 <kidclamp> #endmeeting