14:00:51 <Joubu> #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 26 July 2017
14:00:51 <huginn> Meeting started Wed Jul 26 14:00:51 2017 UTC.  The chair is Joubu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:51 <huginn> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:00:51 <huginn> The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_26_july_2017'
14:01:04 <Joubu> #topic Introductions
14:01:05 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
14:01:16 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart
14:01:19 <marcelr> #info Marcel de Rooy, Rijksmuseum
14:01:19 <tcohen> #info Tomás Cohen Arazi
14:01:22 <mkuhn> #info Michael Kuhn, Switzerland
14:01:29 <LeeJ> #info Lee Jamison, Marywood University
14:01:33 <LibraryClaire> #info Claire Gravely, BSZ, Germany
14:01:45 <cc_> #info Colin Campbell PTFS Europe
14:01:46 <mveron> #info Marc Véron, Koha Support Schweiz
14:02:15 <d_antonakis> #info Dimitris Antonakis, Athens Greece
14:02:29 <Joubu> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_26_July_2017
14:02:51 <kidclamp> #info Nick Clemens, ByWaterSolutions
14:03:10 <atheia> #info Alex Sassmannshausen, PTFS Europe
14:03:44 <Joubu> #topic Announcements
14:04:00 <thd> #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
14:04:02 <Joubu> Anyone have something to announce?
14:04:34 <Joubu> Awesome, next
14:04:40 <kidclamp> Koha US is in two weeks
14:05:13 <kidclamp> The deadline to register for this conference is next Friday, July 28th.
14:05:17 <kidclamp> this friday
14:05:26 <kidclamp> http://koha-us.net/index.php/2017_Koha-US_Conference
14:05:48 <kidclamp> #link http://koha-us.net/index.php/2017_Koha-US_Conference KohaUS Conference
14:05:53 <kidclamp> that's all
14:06:16 <Joubu> #topic Update from the Release Manager (17.11)
14:06:24 <Joubu> I will complain a bit, sorry in advance...
14:06:46 <Joubu> 17.11 cycle has started 2 months ago, an I am feeling a bit struck.
14:07:11 <Joubu> How do we do guys? I have created a Kanban to prioritize tasks, I have created a "ws" to display important bugs on your dashboard (if you like)
14:07:47 <Joubu> We had (and still have...) a blocker for stable releases for 2 months and only few people are *really* involved. I have to ask for help and ping people individually to get feedback.
14:08:00 <Joubu> I have to repeat myself dozen of times and explain again and again the same things, it is really exhausting.
14:08:31 <Joubu> Not enough people attend dev meetings (last time we were 2...), my emails on the ML are not read or did not receive the necessary attention, kanban is not followed and the dashboard is ignored.
14:08:49 <Joubu> So I have a question, and it is a simple one
14:09:01 <Joubu> Where can I put a BIG RED URGENT WARNING to get the needed attention?
14:09:17 <Joubu> (Do not tell me I need holidays, I had 10d very lately.)
14:09:58 <marcelr> you can't do much more imo
14:09:59 <Joubu> This is the first point, I have others. So we can discuss now about it, or just ignore it and I continue with the next one.
14:10:05 <CJSHayward> If I create an instance foo, what is the name of the admin user to use to do setup.
14:10:31 <Joubu> CJSHayward: meeting time, come back later please
14:10:46 <CJSHayward> OK
14:10:49 <Joubu> (well, you can stay, but ask later :))
14:11:04 <thd> Joubu: Try more carrots. Carrots are orange, not red :)
14:11:21 <atheia> Problem is, what carrots do we have?
14:11:33 <Joubu> carrots or baton?
14:11:48 <atheia> (I'm speaking as an RM assistant who is painfully aware that I should be doing more here…)
14:12:25 <Joubu> The carrots in this case would have been to not get 10 of your customers complaining because they lost circulation data
14:13:47 <LeeJ> It's evident the amount of time you've put into the kanban but my question would be (to the community in general) is it possible the kanban is *too* decentralized?
14:14:05 <mkuhn> What is a kanban anyway?
14:14:06 <wahanui> a kanban is probably https://tree.taiga.io/project/joubu-koha-rm-1711/wiki/home
14:14:28 <mkuhn> There is a lot of good will and competence etc etc - BUT there is also chitter chatter, chaos, ineffiency, few time, frustration, new abbreviations, another new software to communicate etc etc etc - we all have to deal with it.
14:14:29 <Joubu> seriously...
14:14:59 <Joubu> LeeJ: well, the idea was to centralized things :)
14:15:00 <thd> One thing which I have experienced more than I should given my networking situation is the excessive JavaScript running the kanban etc. requires so much RAM that it brings my netbook to a mere crawl.
14:15:25 <marcelr> you dont need the kanban to know that this circulation bug is a blocker
14:16:16 <tcohen> marcelr is right
14:16:37 <tcohen> there's certaintly something wrong on how things are working a while back
14:17:17 <thd> marcelr++ Bugzilla can be used without draining RAM.
14:18:20 <Joubu> you have bugzilla, the dashboard and the several emails I sent to koha-devel, no need to use the kanban if you do not want to use it
14:18:52 <Joubu> tcohen: and?
14:19:01 <Joubu> guys, are you here or not?
14:19:13 <mkuhn> How many people are in this chat at the moment, giving their time, waiting for some lines to read, expecting what?
14:19:14 <LeeJ> second that...as members of the community it is our obligation to take responsibility as a whole for dropping the ball on glaring issues (except for those who handle it regularly)
14:20:01 <tcohen> Joubu: maybe it is time to accept we are a smaller group of people coding than we thought
14:20:43 <Joubu> tcohen: ok then I will prefer to spend the next dev cycle to make Koha stable and robust and stop new enh
14:20:44 <LibraryClaire> with re to the blocker, I had been testing it here at work, but in terms of coding my knowledge runs out.
14:21:00 * tcohen doesn't like that Joubu
14:21:17 <mkuhn> Joubu: +1
14:21:22 <marcelr> Joubu: prioritize making it stable but allow enhancements
14:21:32 <kidclamp> new enhancements draw more people in  - but I agree we should resolve blockers as fast possible
14:21:36 <mveron> marcelr: +1
14:21:49 <Joubu> I am talking about adding a "BIG WARNING I NEED HELP" that cannot be ignore by other devs
14:22:06 <Joubu> and without the need to ping people individually during 2 months
14:22:11 <Joubu> It's not related to the size of the group
14:22:46 <marcelr> no but why are people less interested ?
14:22:56 <thd> I personally have too much of a preoccupation coaxing my elderly neighbour through what is involved in changing her heart valve and living situation which is scary for her after she has spent decades ignoring medicine.
14:23:28 <mveron> It's a question of time...
14:23:37 <Joubu> ok next, I will send I email to the list, please think about it
14:23:38 <tcohen> this is not a personal question
14:23:41 <Joubu> next
14:23:50 <LeeJ> one thought I have on how to alert more people...is it possible to have some sort of "Needs Urgent Attention" on the BZ homepage?
14:23:52 <tcohen> to each one to explain why cannot spend more time in Koha
14:23:54 <Joubu> I would also suggest people to continue/finish what is already in our bug tracker rather than starting new developments.
14:23:55 <atheia> This may be really frustrating to ask, but maybe the all caps subject line for WARNING I NEED HELP could be useful to prioritise urgent stuff?
14:24:11 <Joubu> I personnaly will continue to improve our testing suite, write test, reduce execution time, etc. You can follow this job on the kanban.
14:24:12 <marcelr> no please
14:24:12 <wahanui> http://i.imgur.com/hVVuP.jpg
14:24:38 <marcelr> atheia: IN NO TIME CAPS ALL OVER THE PLACE
14:24:45 <atheia> marcelr: who are you reacting to?
14:25:00 <marcelr> your question :)
14:25:17 <atheia> Well, it could be restricted to the RM for use in their judgement?
14:25:36 <atheia> clearly it is not right that Joubu is currently simply not getting the attention when he needs it for a critical discussion,
14:25:39 <thd> Joubu: I know that the kanban is not essential to accomplishing the necessary tasks, however, I think that it can help despite the resource demand..
14:25:40 <Joubu> There is the dashboard, "blocker" and "critical", the saved BZ searches, and the kanban marked "important" with a red flag
14:25:45 <Joubu> cannot do more
14:25:52 <Joubu> it's your job to check them
14:26:01 <atheia> And I'm speaking just for myself here, but I'm drowning in information, so I delete koha email threads on occasion…
14:26:25 <atheia> Joubu: fair enough.
14:26:45 <Joubu> atheia: you are a good exemple I think
14:27:10 <Joubu> what could be added to make it you aware of an important discussion/feedback to follow/give?
14:27:42 <atheia> I have primarily an email based workflow, which is why I was suggesting the special subject tag.
14:28:03 <atheia> But if I'm the only one in that position, then maybe it's on me to change my workflow…
14:28:40 <Joubu> Nope, that cannot work. Are you aware of the "ws" to display the section "BZ status" of our dashboard onto your dashboard?
14:29:14 <atheia> I wasn't even aware I had my own dashboard?
14:29:21 <thd> Joubu: Despite the resource demand, I think the kanban could be more useful if the interface had better ergonomics.  Can the kanban be arranged to only require scrolling up and down, not left to right?
14:29:30 <Joubu> I am talking about that stuff: http://dashboard.koha-community.org/bz_status
14:29:44 <Joubu> thd: no
14:29:59 <Joubu> let's continue, I have other things
14:30:08 <Joubu> going to c/p
14:30:08 <atheia> Joubu: cool.  I did not know about that.
14:30:17 <atheia> I will start using that.
14:30:20 <Joubu> I am going to publish the result of the poll (Ready to help the Koha community?) I am still waiting for the 80+ people and 1000h who were ready to dedicate to the project (per month!)
14:30:27 <Joubu> The next "what's on in koha-devel" and blog post about the kanban is still on my todo list, will come when the next stable versions will be released.
14:30:30 <Joubu> I also have a list of paid support companies to remove from the website, how do I process?
14:30:33 <Joubu> Hea: People manage to enter alpha characters in a readonly input, the geolocation data are not always set correctly on the hea website, I fixed it yesterday to display the map correctly.
14:31:33 <atheia> I imagine this is 4 issues rolled into one discussion?
14:31:46 <marcelr> 80 guys probably on vacation
14:32:10 <mkuhn> Some are giving 0.5 h of their time here at this moment
14:32:17 <Joubu> Nope, will skip them, not the time to process everything
14:32:27 <marcelr> hang on mkuhn
14:32:40 <Joubu> #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers
14:32:46 <Joubu> fridolin, mtj ?
14:32:51 <Joubu> cait is not around
14:33:16 <Joubu> ok I will do this job too...
14:33:38 <Joubu> #info stable release are delayed, because of the checkin/out bugs
14:34:00 <Joubu> #info bug 18966 is waiting for QA and block next releases
14:34:00 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18966 blocker, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Passed QA , Move of checkouts - Deal with duplicate IDs at DBMS level
14:34:13 <Joubu> #topic Updates from the QA team
14:34:27 <marcelr> our queue is still > 100
14:34:46 <marcelr> we should look at the older ones too..
14:35:18 <fridolin> soorry im quite buzy
14:35:55 <Joubu> QAers, nothing else to add?
14:36:20 <Joubu> #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
14:36:31 <Joubu> subtopic?
14:36:44 <Joubu> #subtopic REST api
14:36:52 <Joubu> no
14:37:32 <thd> Some things are sadly flat ;(
14:37:33 <Joubu> #topic REST api
14:37:45 <Joubu> tcohen: ?
14:38:03 <tcohen> a while back I tried to propose what's on the wiki, but the meeting didn't take place
14:38:22 <tcohen> I basically propose myself to coordinate the efforts to move the REST api patches
14:38:25 <tcohen> this means:
14:38:26 <Joubu> yes it did, but we were 2...
14:38:34 <tcohen> - put all the pieces together
14:39:08 <tcohen> - create a more detailed doc with details of the needed endpoints and the current implemetnation statuses
14:39:20 <tcohen> many of them are already in BZ but need to be refactores
14:39:21 <tcohen> d
14:39:44 <tcohen> I don't think it is something to be voted
14:40:01 <tcohen> I'm just proposing people interested on the REST api evolution
14:40:11 <tcohen> can contact me to organize tasks
14:40:24 <tcohen> and provide the community with more fine grained details of the goals
14:41:15 <tcohen> #info We need to push bug 18137 so we move to the new OpenAPI plugin, and all endpoints submitted to bugzilla will need to be refactored (minor changes)
14:41:15 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18137 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, lari.taskula, Passed QA , REST API: Migrate from Mojolicious::Plugin::Swagger2 to Mojolicious::Plugin::OpenAPI
14:41:54 <Joubu> you have on the kanban (https://tree.taiga.io/project/joubu-koha-rm-1711/epic/34) a list of people that said they are interested in helping the REST api work
14:42:05 <Joubu> if you add a task or let a comment, they will be notified
14:42:10 <tcohen> Joubu: yes, thanks!
14:42:56 <tcohen> OpenAPI requires some dependency changes, Mirko has them packaged already
14:43:21 <tcohen> I will try to submit a followup adjusting the deps versions to what Mirko answered
14:43:38 <tcohen> so pushing it doesn't yield any inconsistency
14:44:02 <tcohen> comments?
14:44:02 <wahanui> comments are turned on
14:44:40 <Joubu> As I said last week I push to master on your go
14:44:59 <tcohen> #info people interested on the REST api evolution should add thmeselves to the REST epic in Kanban and/or contact tcohen
14:45:08 <kidclamp> tcohen++
14:45:32 <tcohen> Joubu: thanks, I'll ask Mirko to update the unstable repo so we don't break people's dev environments
14:45:39 <tcohen> that's all about REST
14:45:42 <tcohen> frmo me
14:45:49 <marcelr> tcohen++
14:45:59 <Joubu> #topic Development environment
14:46:05 <Joubu> tcohen again?
14:46:09 <tcohen> Yup
14:46:31 <tcohen> I've been trying to set a more productive dev environment
14:46:40 <tcohen> thinking of baking it into kohadevbox too
14:47:09 <tcohen> I tried the following editors/IDEs
14:47:14 <Joubu> yes that would be great
14:47:30 <tcohen> - Visual Studio Code
14:47:31 <tcohen> - Sublime 3
14:47:31 <tcohen> - Atom
14:47:31 <tcohen> - Komodo IDE
14:47:31 <tcohen> - Eclipse
14:48:14 <tcohen> remote debugging Perl apps requires using a bridge lib that implements some remote debugging abstract protocol
14:48:22 <tcohen> and translates to perl -d
14:48:25 <Joubu> - Vim
14:48:33 <tcohen> Joubu: yes, Vim too
14:48:59 <Joubu> seen the wiki page, right?
14:48:59 <wahanui> I haven't seen 'the', Joubu
14:49:09 <tcohen> Joubu: yes
14:49:28 <tcohen> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Debugging_in_VIM
14:49:33 <tcohen> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Debugging_in_VIM
14:49:49 <tcohen> the remote debugger lib implements the xdebug protocol
14:49:57 <tcohen> people interested should google for xdebug support
14:50:13 <tcohen> I will send an informative email I think
14:50:18 <tcohen> so, to sumarize
14:50:38 <tcohen> remote debugguing cli scripts is pretty straightforward
14:50:50 <tcohen> what's more difficult is to do it on a running Plack
14:50:59 <tcohen> that's what I've been playing with
14:51:15 <tcohen> and I submitted a patch for the koha-plack script
14:51:34 <tcohen> #link bug 18964 proposes adding a --debugger switch to koha-plack
14:51:34 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18964 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Needs Signoff , koha-plack should have a --debug switch
14:51:51 <Joubu> You managed to make it work under plack?
14:52:02 <tcohen> somehow
14:52:13 <tcohen> IDE integration was not ideal
14:52:23 <tcohen> I think it is a bug in the connector
14:52:33 <tcohen> the main complication is URI mapping
14:52:44 <tcohen> it is tricky and I think there's a bug in the connector
14:52:45 <tcohen> BUT
14:53:02 <tcohen> using  $DB::single = 1; on the line you want to stop at
14:53:15 <tcohen> you can effectively inspect variables, evaluate things, etc
14:53:31 <tcohen> my koha-plack tweak is not intended for a specific tool
14:53:44 <tcohen> is it just making starman run in single thread mode
14:54:03 <tcohen> and wrapping all the env needed to make it connect to the remote debugger
14:54:08 <tcohen> starting the debug session
14:54:35 <Joubu> I will take a look this week
14:54:36 <tcohen> anyone willing to put their eyes on koha-plack --debugger, please contact me
14:54:44 <tcohen> or comment on bugzilla
14:55:16 <tcohen> I would love to have it in master and be able to add to kohadevbox tools to make it accessible to anyone
14:55:43 <tcohen> sorry to take the stage for this ling
14:55:49 <tcohen> *long
14:55:52 <Joubu> #topic help update the manual
14:56:01 <Joubu> From cait:
14:56:08 <Joubu> We are looking for volunteers to help update the manual, please get in touch or just give it a try (see Editing the Koha Manual for instructions)
14:56:15 <Joubu> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Editing_the_Koha_Manual
14:56:28 <Joubu> #info We are looking for volunteers to help update the manual, please get in touch
14:56:38 <LeeJ> Also I created a quick YouTube video that shows the edit process
14:56:53 <LeeJ> the video is linked in the Editing the Koha Manual wiki
14:57:14 <Joubu> LeeJ++
14:57:23 <Joubu> #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
14:57:31 <Joubu> something?
14:57:32 <wahanui> something is probably fishy
14:57:45 <Joubu> #topic Set time of next meeting
14:57:47 <kidclamp> I am working with Khall towards getting ES sandboxes setup
14:57:54 <kidclamp> you are fast man :-)
14:58:07 <Joubu> nothing on the agenda man :)
14:58:11 <kidclamp> I wanted to say any comments on bug 18948
14:58:11 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18948 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, nick, Needs Signoff , Elasticsearch - Reindexes should use aliases to avoid down time while reindexing
14:58:19 <kidclamp> or bug 18950
14:58:19 <huginn> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18950 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, nick, Needs Signoff , Elasticsearch - Add password access for admin functions
14:58:32 <kidclamp> woudl be appreciated, these will both ease testability of ES
14:59:06 <kidclamp> I will try to send an updated ES status soon - stil things to work on, but I am excited about possibilities
14:59:20 <kidclamp> thanks Joubu
14:59:23 <Joubu> kidclamp: could you add the new ES bug to the kanban?
14:59:30 <Joubu> I did it few weeks ago
14:59:36 <kidclamp> can do
14:59:49 <Joubu> It helps to have a good overview of what is in the bug report
15:00:06 <LeeJ> if it's alright I'd like to also point out I'm working with cait on getting the Koha manual command line method integrated in kohadevbox
15:00:44 <Joubu> LeeJ: do you have a link?
15:01:22 <LeeJ> Joubu: the steps to setup for working with the command line method are in the Editing the Koha Manual wiki
15:02:05 <Joubu> to integrate in kohadevbox, did not you open an issue on the github?
15:02:12 <Joubu> of KohaDevBox
15:02:20 <LeeJ> Joubu: ah! yes I misunderstood! One moment
15:02:50 <LeeJ> Joubu: https://github.com/digibib/kohadevbox/issues/202
15:03:00 <Joubu> #link https://github.com/digibib/kohadevbox/issues/202
15:03:03 <Joubu> thx
15:03:13 <Joubu> Next meeting: August 9, 21 UTC?
15:03:40 <Joubu> We were 2 at the last 21UTC meeting
15:04:44 <tcohen> Joubu: 21 is the time I pick Manuel
15:05:33 <kidclamp> 21 is to catch NZ folks I think, 22 maybe?
15:05:56 <Joubu> #info Next meeting: August 9, 22 UTC
15:05:59 <Joubu> #endmeeting