20:00:34 <kidclamp> #startmeeting General IRC meeting 13 December 2017
20:00:34 <huginn`> Meeting started Wed Dec 13 20:00:34 2017 UTC.  The chair is kidclamp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:34 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
20:00:34 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_13_december_2017'
20:00:44 <kidclamp> #topic Introductions
20:00:44 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
20:00:53 <kidclamp> #chair cait
20:00:53 <huginn`> Current chairs: cait kidclamp
20:00:56 <kidclamp> #chair Joubu
20:00:56 <huginn`> Current chairs: Joubu cait kidclamp
20:01:02 <georgew> #info George Williams, Northeast Kansas Library System
20:01:09 <kidclamp> #info Nick Clemens, ByWater Solutions
20:01:18 <cait> i have soup on the stove, probably not good to make me chair :)
20:01:24 <caroline> #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro (Canada)
20:01:29 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
20:01:29 <kidclamp> can't hurt
20:01:30 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart
20:01:33 <Joubu> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_13_December_2017
20:01:45 <BobB> #info Bob Birchall, Calyx, Australia
20:01:50 <caboose> #info Michael Cabus bywater solutions Princeton NJ
20:01:51 <jmsasse> #info Joel Sasse Plum Creek USA
20:01:52 <rangi> #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ
20:01:53 <thd> #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City [Currently in California until 27 Dec.]
20:01:56 <clintD> #info Clint Deckard Anact NZ
20:01:59 <rangi> Your Linode, bugs, has exceeded the notification threshold (90) for CPU Usage by averaging 94.7% for the last 2 hours.
20:02:01 <bag> #info Brendan Gallagher ByWater
20:02:17 <tuxayo> #info Victor Grousset, BibLibre, France
20:02:21 <cait> oh
20:02:24 <rangi> if the bugzilla is slow, its because someone is beating the hell out of it currently, so ill be sorta here, sorta trying to fix that
20:03:02 * Joubu guesses it's greenjimll :D
20:03:13 <tuxayo> rangi: the kind of beating that also happened with the wiki?
20:03:35 <kidclamp> #topic Announcements
20:03:45 <kidclamp> floor is open
20:03:51 <thd> It is still my birthday
20:03:55 <rangi> tuxayo: don't know, I don't look after the wiki
20:03:59 <rangi> but probably
20:04:02 <bag> happy birthday thd
20:04:05 <BobB> happy birthday thd
20:04:08 <georgew> happy birthday thd
20:04:14 <kidclamp> #info it is thd's birthday all day
20:04:17 <thd> I have delayed the party until after the meeting.
20:04:22 <tuxayo> happy birthday thd
20:04:35 <cait> happy birthday
20:04:40 <thd> I usually have to collect a 2 year old from school at this time.
20:05:04 <josef_moravec> #info Josef Moravec, Munucipal Library UO, Czech Republic
20:05:09 <kidclamp> #topic Update on releases
20:05:36 <thd> In other more important news, at home in New York I have redundant internet from two different ISPs ending a 9 month period of no internet at home.
20:05:53 <mtj> #info Mason James, NZ
20:06:05 <wizzyrea> #info Liz Rea, Catalyst NZ
20:06:16 <kidclamp> #info 17.11 see dev meeting, will be pushing and announce string freeze for 15th
20:06:23 <kidclamp> ranig any 16.11 update?
20:06:31 <kidclamp> rangi even
20:06:33 <rangi> same as that
20:06:46 <kidclamp> #info ditto for others :-)
20:06:49 <Joubu> rangi: there is a test failing, I submit a follow-up. I guess you saw it
20:07:06 <Joubu> submitted*
20:07:10 <rangi> yep thanks
20:07:11 <kidclamp> #info see dev meeeting for 18.05 goals and notes
20:07:40 <kidclamp> #topic FAQs - website, manual or wiki?
20:08:05 <kidclamp> cait?
20:08:05 <wahanui> cait is, like, the best friend you could ever have
20:08:08 <cait> oh sorry
20:08:12 <cait> the soup :)
20:08:25 <cait> ok, we currently have some faqs on the website and some in the manual
20:08:35 <cait> i tihnk they are all in need of updating
20:08:48 <cait> the question is where we want them to go
20:08:57 <cait> and i am throwing in the wiki as a third option ;)
20:09:15 <wizzyrea> I think the manual
20:09:29 <wizzyrea> they'll get looked at each release (in theory)
20:09:38 <caroline> The wiki is more accessible
20:09:45 <cait> i think website makes it a bit hard because not so many have access
20:09:46 <caroline> i.e. more people can contribute
20:09:51 <cait> linking to the wiki or manual make both sense to me
20:09:52 <georgew> I was thinking the wiki
20:09:52 <BobB> i agree with wizzyrea, the manual is where new people tend to look first
20:09:54 <wizzyrea> everyone has manual
20:09:57 <wizzyrea> access as well
20:10:02 <wizzyrea> to submit patches
20:10:07 <thd> The wiki should be the easiest place for the most current information, however, document structure of FAQs is better suited to the website or manual.
20:10:16 <caroline> yeah, but it's not easy to understand
20:10:22 <cait> with the wiki we can react to mailing list questions etc more quickly
20:10:28 <cait> it's a bit less complicated even than the manual
20:10:33 <cait> so i am a bit more pro wiki
20:10:51 <wizzyrea> I don't like the wiki because it is TOO easy to update, so gets bad information more easily.
20:10:56 <wizzyrea> and less oversight.
20:11:03 <caroline> I am also pro wiki. and we could add the best questions to the manual
20:11:04 <georgew> I would suggest the wiki and have links to the faqs in the manual
20:11:31 <cait> wizzyrea: i check the recent updates regularly, atm it seems mostly ok
20:11:40 <rangi> theres way more wrong info on the wiki than there is right
20:11:42 <kidclamp> wiki and cherry pick for manual? I think both are usefull in diff ways
20:11:45 <thd> There is no reason information cannot be in multiple places with a message to check the wiki for most current updates.
20:11:46 <wizzyrea> ^
20:11:51 <rangi> thats a separate problem tho
20:11:51 <Joubu> both? Put them in the manual and update the wiki? Or the reverse
20:11:52 <kidclamp> but the stuff that is right is very usefull
20:12:08 <wizzyrea> the stuff that is right should be in the manual
20:12:09 <wizzyrea> imo.
20:12:14 <caroline> duplicates means double the work tho
20:12:19 <cait> i tihnk the wiki is more technical
20:12:21 <Joubu> no, automatically
20:12:22 <cait> we could also divide it
20:12:27 <cait> but not sure if that will work well
20:12:33 <cait> i'd prefer one spot
20:12:42 <cait> hm documentation team is not around
20:12:46 <wizzyrea> we could do some 4th solution
20:13:08 <thd> We could always ad an extension or create some automated method of pulling from one place to populate another.
20:13:15 <wizzyrea> which is a dedicated FAQ with easy access but that is neither the website, wiki, or manual.
20:13:20 <thd> s/ad/add/
20:13:30 <cait> would require a new account etc probably
20:13:51 <wizzyrea> depends on where it is.
20:14:03 <georgew> I don't care for the idea of a fourth place - three's enough
20:14:18 <wizzyrea> well at least one of those places would be going away
20:14:21 <wizzyrea> (the website)
20:14:26 <thd> wizzyrea: Do you have some particular dedicated FAQ system in mind?
20:14:52 <wizzyrea> I don't
20:14:56 <wizzyrea> because I haven't looked
20:14:59 <wizzyrea> :)
20:15:16 <cait> i think as all need to be cleaned up right now, we could move them all into one place - or should decide to have clear categories on what goes where
20:15:19 <Joubu> I think it makes sense to have the wiki (for easy edit) then pull the good info for the manual every major release
20:15:21 <wizzyrea> but I would be happy to look
20:15:40 <wizzyrea> that sounds like an awful lot of work - bc someone has to go in and find the good info
20:15:47 <wizzyrea> computers can't judge that.
20:15:48 * thd has investigated automated FAQ generation in the long past using vim.
20:16:13 <BobB> I agree one place is best, and the wiki is easiest to edit ...
20:16:14 <wizzyrea> the bar doesn't have to be high, but I feel there does have to be a bar
20:16:19 <Joubu> I do not expect 100 new Q&A every 6 months
20:16:25 <BobB> as long as there is a clear link to it in the manual
20:17:08 <wizzyrea> well for the log I think that will be a mess
20:17:09 <caroline> doesn't the documentation team have to go over our commits in the manual anyway?
20:17:09 <cait> there are questions repeating on the mailing lists - those could be turned into faq
20:17:14 <wizzyrea> but you do you
20:17:16 <cait> in the manual yes
20:17:19 <cait> push is moderated
20:17:24 <thd> wizzyrea: some custom markup nomenclature could sort the problem of distinguishing one thing from another in a wiki based FAQ for selection into other locations.
20:17:47 <rangi> for the record i agree with wizzyrea
20:17:50 <caroline> so it's not necessarily more work, just different
20:18:27 <cait> should we have a vote between wiki and manual?
20:18:30 <cait> i think website is out?
20:18:52 <talljoy> #info Joy Nelson Bywater
20:18:53 <wizzyrea> website is least accessible and highest barriers.
20:18:56 <wizzyrea> so yes.
20:18:57 <BobB> only a few people can edit the website
20:19:18 <cait> kidclamp: could you start a vote maybe?
20:19:36 <cait> just a last note - manual is versioned, so have to be careful with links from website, maybe a page between with links for the faq to different versions
20:19:55 <kidclamp> one sec
20:19:58 <georgew> I guess the real question I am asking myself is, who are the faqs supposed to benefit, and where are they most likely to look to find them
20:20:08 <thd> BobB: Only a few people can edit the website live but there is no reason we could not institute a drafting process for something such as FAQ content for the website.
20:20:09 <wizzyrea> none of those are problems that can't be solved
20:20:23 <wizzyrea> I could probably pretty easily pull in faq's from the manual
20:20:28 <wizzyrea> to the website
20:20:34 <georgew> When I was new, I was far more likely to look on the wiki than the manual because the wiki was easier to navigate and search
20:20:37 <kidclamp> so just manual or wiki? or either or both?
20:20:41 <aleisha_> #info Aleisha Amohia, Catalyst IT, NZ
20:20:47 <wizzyrea> ah but the manual is much different now
20:20:57 <georgew> It has gotten a lot better
20:21:31 <BobB> its just another task for someone
20:21:50 <wizzyrea> it's always been a task for "someone"
20:21:51 <wizzyrea> :)
20:22:13 <cait> i think we can start reworking them once we have agreed on one spot
20:22:16 <kidclamp> #startvote Should we maintain the FAQ as a wiki page, or in the manual? Manual, wiki
20:22:16 <huginn`> Begin voting on: Should we maintain the FAQ as a wiki page, or in the manual? Valid vote options are Manual, wiki.
20:22:16 <huginn`> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
20:22:21 <cait> right now it's quite confusing
20:22:36 <kidclamp> #vote wiki
20:22:36 <Joubu> both?
20:22:36 <wahanui> both is probably best :)
20:22:36 <Joubu> we have the wiki for the quick and easy edit, then the manual team pick and reorder items to put them into the next manual version
20:22:36 <Joubu> then wiki is reset with the content from the manual
20:22:36 <Joubu> yes dup of info is bad, I am just tryin to find an agreement for the 2 points of view :)
20:22:54 <cait> i think people might be confused when looking at the different versions - search 2 spots
20:22:55 <wizzyrea> #vote Manual
20:23:08 <cait> and the manual team is using kanban and stil have the framapad open i think
20:23:11 <talljoy> #vote wiki
20:23:13 <cait> so lots of options
20:23:22 <Joubu> #vote both...
20:23:22 <huginn`> Joubu: both... is not a valid option. Valid options are Manual, wiki.
20:23:33 <rangi> #vote Manual
20:23:45 <rangi> (well actually #vote anything but the wiki)
20:23:53 <thd> #vote Manual
20:24:00 <aleisha_> #vote Manual
20:24:03 <georgew> #vote Wiki
20:24:10 <caroline> both, but if I have to choose... wiki
20:24:13 <cait> abstain - no valid option, so being quiet :)
20:24:18 <caroline> #vote wiki
20:24:27 <alexbuckley> #vote Manual
20:24:53 <bag> #vote Manual
20:25:01 <josef_moravec> #vote Manual
20:25:12 <clintD> #vote Manual
20:25:25 <kidclamp> last call
20:25:42 <Joubu> #abstain
20:25:50 <Joubu> do not know how to do that
20:26:38 <kidclamp> #endvote
20:26:38 <huginn`> Voted on "Should we maintain the FAQ as a wiki page, or in the manual?" Results are
20:26:38 <huginn`> wiki (4): kidclamp, caroline, talljoy, georgew
20:26:38 <huginn`> Manual (8): clintD, wizzyrea, josef_moravec, bag, alexbuckley, thd, aleisha_, rangi
20:27:06 <cait> at leats we got a decision now and can start cleaning up :)
20:27:08 <Joubu> so let's write that page now
20:27:16 <Joubu> so let's improve that page now :)
20:27:27 <cait> hehe
20:27:28 <kidclamp> #info vote results 4 for wiki, 8 for manual, FAQ will be maintained on the manual
20:27:29 <cait> #link https://koha-community.org/manual/17.11/en/html/17_miscellaneous.html#faqs
20:27:42 <cait> wizzyrea: should we let you know once stuff has been moved or how to go about it?
20:28:17 <cait> i think first would be to make it a separate chapter :)
20:28:20 <cait> ot of misc
20:29:18 <cait> move on?
20:29:23 <rangi> the other thing with the manual that i just remembered, is it is translatable
20:29:38 <wizzyrea> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
20:29:40 <kidclamp> that's all the topics, just next meeting
20:29:49 <kidclamp> so discussion has time if wanted
20:30:00 <wizzyrea> yep just let me know how you want to handle links to it
20:30:06 <wizzyrea> I can make the existing faq go away lickety split
20:30:06 <rangi> (without someone having to maintain multiple pages)
20:30:34 <rangi> https://koha-community.org/manual/17.11/fr/html/17_miscellaneous.html#faqs  eg <-- only partially done
20:30:36 <thd> wiki should also be translatable but the procedure for that was sidestepped in the rush to put up a wiki when the old one went down.
20:31:02 <Joubu> Next doc meeting is too far, I'd like to get opinion about what we already discussed few months ago: How can we merge the online and offline manuals
20:31:19 <Joubu> We should remove the help pages and onboard the manual
20:31:40 <wizzyrea> I have concerns
20:31:43 <rangi> we also need to start writing some guides, the manual is good, when you already know koha
20:31:45 <Joubu> the first step would be to link to the online manual, then let the ability to  provide a local path to point to a local version
20:31:50 <wizzyrea> 1. not every koha has internet access
20:31:59 <Joubu> yes, what I said :)
20:32:23 <wizzyrea> ok phew
20:32:23 <Joubu> then I think we should add a way to edit the manual (for local use in a first time)
20:32:40 <kidclamp> is there a bug for that Joubu?
20:32:45 <Joubu> and eventually the ability to merge request (but let's mark that TODO LATER)
20:32:50 <wizzyrea> technically those files are already editable with correct config, but I think the how to has been lost to the mists of time
20:33:08 <wizzyrea> plus slightly terrifying
20:33:34 <Joubu> there is 18472 and 18483, I am not willing to push them. That's why I am looking for another option
20:33:59 <Joubu> ideas/opinions?
20:34:29 <kidclamp> bug 18472 bug 18483
20:34:29 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18472 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, veron, Passed QA , Add system preferences to manage online help system
20:34:30 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18483 enhancement, P4, ---, veron, In Discussion , Customised help: Enhance staff client with news based, easily editable help system
20:34:30 <Joubu> think about it for the next manual meeting :)
20:35:24 <Joubu> something else or we move on to set the time of the next meeting?
20:35:25 <ibeardslee> While you are 'all' here for the IRC meeting, we are looking forward to having Koha as part of the Catalyst Open Source Academy next month. Thank you all for being part of it :)
20:35:34 <thd> Long ago we had a discussion ...
20:35:41 <wizzyrea> oh yes, tag your bugs academy
20:35:50 <wizzyrea> please and to be thanking you
20:36:08 <thd> we investigated software for managing the manual ...
20:36:51 <thd> ... as nengard was doing much of the work alone her preference became the choice
20:36:57 <josef_moravec> Would be probably possible to automatically generate integrated help pages from manual?
20:37:32 <nengard> ??
20:37:50 <josef_moravec> and then probably something like bug 18438 on top of it to local customization?
20:37:50 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18438 major, P5 - low, ---, alexbuckley, Pushed to Stable , Check in: Modal about holds hides important check in messages
20:38:16 <thd> nengard: You do not remember that discussion.  Actually we may have voted in your preference.
20:38:27 <nengard> i didn't read back to see what you were talking about :)
20:39:05 <Joubu> josef_moravec: I think it's good to have the manual outside of the Koha code, otherwise we are going to embed all the translated versions of the manual
20:39:13 <rangi> its moot now
20:39:20 <rangi> cos it's not even xml anymore
20:39:58 <Joubu> #topic Set time of next meeting
20:40:18 <wizzyrea> I think we should have a manual package that koha-common depends on
20:40:23 <wizzyrea> and you get both
20:40:27 <wizzyrea> but they are independent
20:40:52 <cait> we discussed last time to make it an option
20:40:52 <wizzyrea> or even that it doesn't depend on it, it could be optional, for example if you install Koha and have internet, you don't need the manual package
20:40:58 <thd> There were a few options and are probably more now which manage documentation in different formats online, print, etc; work well with collaboration; support version control in git well; etc.
20:41:01 <cait> use the installed manual locally or link to the external
20:41:04 <cait> i tihnk that would be nice
20:41:22 <cait> for all the hosted koha an online manual on the internet is not a big issue
20:41:29 <wizzyrea> yeah, we could create a manual vhost on the server, so your koha server could have manual.mydns.com
20:41:36 <wizzyrea> and you just go to your own copy
20:41:51 <wizzyrea> a package could do all that for you
20:42:32 <wizzyrea> and it could set a flag that says "hi I'm installed locally, all your links should point to me!"
20:42:41 <cait> if we have a configurable url
20:42:52 <wizzyrea> it'd be configurable just like the koha ones are
20:42:55 <cait> you could also have a customized manual for all oyur servers if you decided to
20:43:05 <Joubu> Next meeting: 10 January 2018, 14 UTC ?
20:43:22 <cait> ok for me
20:43:48 <thd> wizzyrea++
20:44:13 <Joubu> #info Next meeting: 10 January 2018, 14 UTC
20:44:16 <thd> Yaay 14 UTC
20:44:22 <Joubu> can I end?
20:44:41 <wizzyrea> ok by me
20:44:42 <BobB> yep
20:44:45 <georgew> yes
20:44:45 <Joubu> #endmeeting