14:02:24 <kidclamp> #startmeeting General IRC meeting 4 October 2017 14:02:24 <huginn`> Meeting started Wed Oct 4 14:02:24 2017 UTC. The chair is kidclamp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:02:24 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:02:24 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_4_october_2017' 14:02:29 <kidclamp> #topci Introductions 14:02:32 <kidclamp> #topic Introductions 14:02:33 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient 14:02:36 <pastebot> "tcohen" at 172.16.248.212 pasted "Joubu, khall, lari" (32 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/11 14:02:49 <kidclamp> #info Nick Clemens, ByWater Solutions 14:02:50 <oleonard> #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, USA 14:02:51 <marcelr> #info Marcel de Rooy, Netherlands 14:02:54 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart 14:03:00 <tcohen> #info Tomas Cohen Arazi 14:03:05 <NateC> #info Nate Curulla, ByWater 14:03:06 <mveron> #info Marc Véron, Switzerland 14:03:48 <d_antonakis> #info Dimitris Antonakis, Greece 14:04:05 <khall> #info Kyle M Hall, ByWater Solutions 14:04:15 <AdamB> #info Adam Brooks, ByWater Solutions 14:04:30 <lisettelatah> #info Lisette Scheer, Latah County Library District 14:04:53 <georgewilliams> #info George Williams, Northeast Kansas Library System 14:05:28 <rangi> #info Chris Cormack (only sorta here actually at a conference in Baltimore) 14:05:51 <indradg> #info Indranil Das Gupta 14:06:04 <kidclamp> #topic Announcements 14:06:18 <kidclamp> #info Today is documentation sprint day! 14:06:25 <kidclamp> #info Next wednesday is GBSD! 14:06:36 <kidclamp> anyone else? 14:06:43 <tcohen> QA day? 14:07:12 <kidclamp> are we doing each friday until release? 14:07:38 <Joubu> or just do a bit of QA when you have time? 14:07:53 <kidclamp> or both? 14:07:53 <wahanui> both is, like, best :) 14:08:02 <kidclamp> everyday is QA day :-D 14:08:03 <Joubu> Basically there are no QA outside of the QA sprint days 14:08:12 <Joubu> so I do not think they are a good idea 14:08:15 <marcelr> ?? 14:09:27 <kidclamp> I think they seem to work for QAers though, a dedicated chunk of time, is easy to schedule, but maybe is a topic for a dev meeting? 14:09:42 <tcohen> I think it is a good idea 14:09:53 <tcohen> having a QA day a week 14:09:58 <rangi> i do feel (and I might be wrong) that since we havent had cait as QA manager a lot less QA is being done. This is no reflection on anyone, or meant to be rude, but I do feel like we now are seeing just how much work she put in. 14:10:18 <marcelr> dont forget Joubu 14:10:35 <oleonard> cait++ 14:10:36 <mveron> cait++ Joubu++ 14:10:39 <tcohen> absolutely, she was better than Joubu kicking our butts :-P 14:10:42 <tcohen> Joubu++ 14:10:43 <tcohen> cait++ 14:10:48 <kidclamp> cait++ 14:10:50 <kidclamp> Joubu++ 14:10:57 <khall> rangi++ 14:11:18 <kidclamp> rangi++ 14:11:22 <mveron> QAers++ 14:11:24 <tcohen> rangi++ 14:11:58 <tcohen> I think we should announce it, and communicate to all QAers they need to schedule a day, it will be easier for everyone 14:12:11 <kidclamp> +1 14:12:44 <Joubu> we communicated about them 14:13:00 <mveron> ...and we all know that we should pay attention to bug messages on such days, to fix things... (If we have time...) 14:13:18 <Joubu> what you just said is exactly what I did for the last 2 ones 14:13:51 <cait> huh? what did i do? 14:13:58 <tcohen> Joubu: humans are very weird creatures, don't try to understand 14:14:12 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 14:14:16 <cait> sorry, almost missed the meeting 14:15:09 <cait> #info Documentation Sprint Day is now and until 4 October had ended everywhere 14:16:55 <cait> Joubu++ 14:18:05 <kidclamp> I think the QA discussion should continue in email so we can keep this meeting general 14:18:28 <Joubu> definitely 14:18:53 <kidclamp> #topic Update on releases 14:19:19 <kidclamp> cait? 14:19:19 <wahanui> cait is the best friend you could ever have. 14:19:25 <cait> wow today... 14:19:26 <wahanui> today is probably bug-squashing day 14:19:28 <kidclamp> wahanui botsnack 14:19:29 <wahanui> thanks kidclamp :) 14:19:53 <cait> #info 16.11.13 is on schedule for release around 22 October 14:20:08 <cait> #info Release managers are trying to coordinate so packages are available on release day 14:20:11 <cait> hm 14:20:14 <cait> release mainteiners... 14:21:21 <kidclamp> fridolin? 14:21:21 <wahanui> fridolin is busy at the moment, I asked him to backport the bug fix 14:22:08 <kidclamp> Joubu? 14:22:08 <wahanui> Joubu is not sure how to fix that correctly 14:22:22 <fridolin> kidclamp: yep ? 14:22:23 <wahanui> yep. 14:22:35 <kidclamp> ah, update on 17.05? 14:22:40 <kidclamp> fridolin ^ 14:22:55 <fridolin> i'looking at my skedule 14:23:01 <BobB> #info Bob Birchall, Calyx, Australia 14:23:12 <Joubu> #info if you need update about the RM, read dev meetings minutes or last "what's on in koha-devel" on the koha website 14:23:16 <BobB> hi all, just woke up, so here I am :) 14:23:23 <Joubu> sorry I cannot repeat myself every week 14:23:29 <kidclamp> np Joubu 14:23:30 <fridolin> #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre, France 14:24:11 <fridolin> 17.05.05 release after 23 oct i'd say 14:24:12 <Joubu> let's move on kidclamp 14:25:07 <kidclamp> #topic KohaCon 18 14:25:49 <oleonard> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon18_Proposals 14:26:00 <kidclamp> there is a proposal to vote on new deadline for submissions as the last was not published 14:27:05 <cait> that's from me 14:27:25 <cait> we agreed on a date, but I didn't see it on the mailing list or bidding page, so I think we should reschedule and announce properly 14:27:33 <oleonard> +1 14:27:53 <mveron> +1 14:28:02 <kidclamp> do you think 2 weeks is sufficient? don't want to push back decision too far 14:28:03 <cait> better safe than sorry :) 14:28:26 <tcohen> there's only one bid 14:28:54 <tcohen> for september 14:28:55 <cait> yah, but in case somene says later they wanted to add a bid too 14:29:12 <cait> could we extend the bid until the next meeting? 14:29:13 <tcohen> one or two weeks won't hurt 14:29:42 <kidclamp> next meeting makes sense to me, do we want to vote then? so make the dealine midnight day before 14:29:52 <tcohen> +1 14:30:02 <cait> sounds good 14:30:11 <georgewilliams> +1 14:30:18 <khall> +1 14:30:23 <mveron> +1 14:30:34 <lisettelatah> +1 14:31:07 <kidclamp> any dissenters? 14:31:14 <cait> if there is only one vote we can announce, if another is added we need to make a survey i think 14:31:21 <cait> to stick with procedure 14:31:47 <kidclamp> ah, okay 14:32:22 <kidclamp> #agreed Dealine for KohaCon 18 submissions extended to end of the day 17 October 2017 14:32:29 <kidclamp> you want to send that out cait? 14:33:07 <cait> super busy, can someone else do it plz? 14:33:55 <oleonard> I'll do it 14:34:00 <kidclamp> oleonard++ 14:34:05 <cait> oleonard++ 14:34:19 <kidclamp> magnuse about? 14:34:28 <tcohen> oleonard++ 14:34:43 <kidclamp> next topic is his unless anyone else can explain for help files 14:35:19 <cait> hm maybe i can help out 14:35:24 <cait> sec, looking at the agenda 14:35:46 <cait> the basic problem is that the help files included in Koha are copies of the text in the manual 14:35:49 <kidclamp> #topic Alternatives for help files 14:36:06 <cait> that is not a good way of doing things - it means Nicole manually copied text into each file and submitted patches 14:36:15 <cait> and if things get outdated, you have to maintain 2 files 14:36:20 <cait> translators have to translate twice 14:36:35 <cait> another separate problem: local changes to help files get overwritten on update 14:36:54 <cait> the main difference between help files and manual now is that they don't include links and are translated with Koha 14:37:14 <cait> I think we need to find a way that pulls things from the manual or maybe even link to it directly 14:37:32 <cait> but possibly can only do that once translation for the manula is sorted 14:37:44 <cait> there have been several bugs filed aruond the issue that magnuse put on a wiki page: 14:37:49 <cait> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Alternatives_for_help_files 14:38:27 <cait> we coud have a script pull the text maybe, but difficult to avoid double work for translators 14:38:36 <cait> we could deliver Koha with the manual and link to it 14:38:50 <cait> but I guess there is size to consider here 14:39:13 <cait> one bug suggests using a wiki... but we just switched to sphinx and I don't think having doubled up docs is feasable 14:39:20 <cait> etc. 14:39:36 <cait> ideas and such welcome :) 14:39:48 <BobB> good explanation cait, thank you 14:39:59 <mveron> Bug 18483 allows to have your own local help text. It can exist together with other help systems (managed by a syspref) 14:39:59 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18483 enhancement, P4, ---, veron, Signed Off , Customised help: Enhance staff client with news based, easily editable help system 14:40:02 <Joubu> we could try to generate the help files from the manual, automatically 14:40:26 <cait> reading back: not include screenshots, the help files have links, but no pictures 14:40:39 <marcelr> is there a way to check if we are not overwriting updated online help ? 14:40:41 <kidclamp> #info in a nutshell the issue is that help files duplicate the manual, require doulbe translations, and are overwritten on updates 14:41:08 <kidclamp> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Alternatives_for_help_files Current bugs/options for dealing with help files 14:41:08 <cait> Joubu: yeah, but how to handle translations? 14:41:11 <Joubu> missed that line 14:41:35 <cait> kidclamp: nice summary .) 14:42:04 <cait> there is actually a lot more interest in translating the manual than I woudl have thought 14:43:05 <cait> maybe there is a way to script things to work all together, translate onces, use those translations for help files and a full manual? 14:43:12 <Joubu> yes... just highlight the stuffs that are pulled to make them a priority for translators 14:43:25 <cait> and have a separte feature to store local additions 14:43:38 <cait> it's the same tex 14:43:45 <cait> i think we should really try to avoid double translation 14:43:52 <cait> it#s super painful 14:43:55 <mveron> +1 14:44:46 <cait> if the strings are the same, coudl we not take what was translated for the manual and have that in the po file for the help file somehow? 14:47:02 <Joubu> I will need to take a closer look, but it sounds tricky 14:47:29 <Joubu> do we want offline help? 14:47:47 <kidclamp> yes 14:47:51 <Joubu> otherwise we could imagine a webservice 14:47:52 <mveron> yes 14:48:01 <mveron> ..for offline help 14:48:06 <cait> I think it might be a requirement in some contexts 14:48:19 <Joubu> yes 14:48:29 <Joubu> so it sounds tricky :) 14:48:46 <cait> a local copy with a configurable url might be an option? 14:49:29 <cait> but probably woudl be hard for some to do 14:50:00 <Joubu> the easiest would be to point to the manual directly yes, instead of recreating something else based on the manual 14:50:52 <cait> not sure, shoudl we get some opinions on that? 14:51:18 <Joubu> syspref which points to the k-c.org/manual, but people could clone the manual and modify the pref? 14:51:25 <cait> a configurable url would be good anyway, so you can decide which language manual to link to 14:51:40 <cait> something like that 14:51:45 <Joubu> and we remove all the help/* files from the koha codebase 14:52:13 <cait> hm, not sure how mveron's feature would work 14:52:28 <mveron> Did you test it? - It works nicely 14:52:49 <cait> didn't test, but worried removing the help files would hurt it 14:52:49 <mveron> See my comment #21 on 18483 14:53:12 <mveron> No. Just some small changes necessary. 14:53:18 <cait> Joubu: if we remove help files, where do we store the link to themanual? 14:53:38 <mveron> Could be anaged by the syspref i introduced. 14:53:54 <mveron> managed (Sorry bad eyes today) 14:53:57 <Joubu> we will need a mapping koha page<=>manual 14:54:00 <cait> yep 14:54:05 <cait> maybeTT plugin and a mapping file? 14:54:21 <cait> maybe move the technical discussion out of the meeting 14:54:29 <cait> is this solution agreeable to people present? 14:54:36 <kidclamp> I+1 14:54:39 <kidclamp> +1 14:55:14 <marcelr> maybe first present it to the dev list ? 14:55:34 <mveron> +1 14:55:44 <cait> maybe translators too? 14:55:54 <cait> and i think we can't make the move before it's possible again to translate the manual 14:56:13 <mveron> Yes, translating the manual is a must 14:56:43 <magnuse> #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 14:56:54 <rangi> i havent caught up with bernardo yet sorry 14:57:11 <kidclamp> #info proposal is a syspref/mapping to local files and other wise pointing to the manual on the web 14:57:20 <cait> hm ok, let's send the proposal once we have checked with bernardo 14:57:46 <kidclamp> #info email will be sent to devs/translators once manual translation is sorted again 14:57:46 <cait> you can action item me for that 14:58:03 <kidclamp> #action cait will check with bernardo and send proposal 14:58:26 <kidclamp> magnuse: once you catch up on scrollback let us know if you have additions 14:58:37 <kidclamp> your topic was hijacked :-) 14:58:54 <cait> I had talked to him about it before, so I hope it was ok :) 14:59:06 <mveron> Did anybody try out Bug 18483? 14:59:06 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18483 enhancement, P4, ---, veron, Signed Off , Customised help: Enhance staff client with news based, easily editable help system 14:59:23 * magnuse wanted to spark a discussion and seems to have succeeded :-) 14:59:54 <reiveune> bye 15:00:16 <magnuse> Nothing special to add, I think 15:00:33 <kidclamp> we are at an hour - next meeting 18 October 2017, 21 UTC? 15:01:36 <kidclamp> or maybe 19 UTC? later is better for NZ I think, but earlier sometimes nets more people? I am open 15:03:30 <oleonard> Neither are great for me, but 21UTC is better, FWIW 15:03:31 <cait> daylight savings soon now, so things are moving around a bit 15:03:44 <cait> late here, but not impossible :) 15:04:17 <kidclamp> yeah, 21 is 5 here so is workable 15:04:22 <kidclamp> #topic Next meeting 15:04:44 <kidclamp> #info next meeting: 18 October 2017, 21 UTC 15:05:01 <kidclamp> last chance everyone ;-b 15:06:03 <kidclamp> #endmeeting