14:02:24 <kidclamp> #startmeeting General IRC meeting 4 October 2017
14:02:24 <huginn`> Meeting started Wed Oct  4 14:02:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is kidclamp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:02:24 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:02:24 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_4_october_2017'
14:02:29 <kidclamp> #topci Introductions
14:02:32 <kidclamp> #topic Introductions
14:02:33 <wahanui> #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
14:02:36 <pastebot> "tcohen" at 172.16.248.212 pasted "Joubu, khall, lari" (32 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/11
14:02:49 <kidclamp> #info Nick Clemens, ByWater Solutions
14:02:50 <oleonard> #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, USA
14:02:51 <marcelr> #info Marcel de Rooy, Netherlands
14:02:54 <Joubu> #info Jonathan Druart
14:03:00 <tcohen> #info Tomas Cohen Arazi
14:03:05 <NateC> #info Nate Curulla, ByWater
14:03:06 <mveron> #info Marc Véron, Switzerland
14:03:48 <d_antonakis> #info Dimitris Antonakis, Greece
14:04:05 <khall> #info Kyle M Hall, ByWater Solutions
14:04:15 <AdamB> #info Adam Brooks, ByWater Solutions
14:04:30 <lisettelatah> #info Lisette Scheer, Latah County Library District
14:04:53 <georgewilliams> #info George Williams, Northeast Kansas Library System
14:05:28 <rangi> #info Chris Cormack (only sorta here actually at a conference in Baltimore)
14:05:51 <indradg> #info Indranil Das Gupta
14:06:04 <kidclamp> #topic Announcements
14:06:18 <kidclamp> #info Today is documentation sprint day!
14:06:25 <kidclamp> #info Next wednesday is GBSD!
14:06:36 <kidclamp> anyone else?
14:06:43 <tcohen> QA day?
14:07:12 <kidclamp> are we doing each friday until release?
14:07:38 <Joubu> or just do a bit of QA when you have time?
14:07:53 <kidclamp> or both?
14:07:53 <wahanui> both is, like, best :)
14:08:02 <kidclamp> everyday is QA day :-D
14:08:03 <Joubu> Basically there are no QA outside of the QA sprint days
14:08:12 <Joubu> so I do not think they are a good idea
14:08:15 <marcelr> ??
14:09:27 <kidclamp> I think they seem to work for QAers though, a dedicated chunk of time, is easy to schedule, but maybe is a topic for a dev meeting?
14:09:42 <tcohen> I think it is a good idea
14:09:53 <tcohen> having a QA day a week
14:09:58 <rangi> i do feel (and I might be wrong) that since we havent had cait as QA manager a lot less QA is being done. This is no reflection on anyone, or meant to be rude, but I do feel like we now are seeing just how much work she put in.
14:10:18 <marcelr> dont forget Joubu
14:10:35 <oleonard> cait++
14:10:36 <mveron> cait++ Joubu++
14:10:39 <tcohen> absolutely, she was better than Joubu kicking our butts :-P
14:10:42 <tcohen> Joubu++
14:10:43 <tcohen> cait++
14:10:48 <kidclamp> cait++
14:10:50 <kidclamp> Joubu++
14:10:57 <khall> rangi++
14:11:18 <kidclamp> rangi++
14:11:22 <mveron> QAers++
14:11:24 <tcohen> rangi++
14:11:58 <tcohen> I think we should announce it, and communicate to all QAers they need to schedule a day, it will be easier for everyone
14:12:11 <kidclamp> +1
14:12:44 <Joubu> we communicated about them
14:13:00 <mveron> ...and we all know that we should pay attention to bug messages on such days, to fix things... (If we have time...)
14:13:18 <Joubu> what you just said is exactly what I did for the last 2 ones
14:13:51 <cait> huh? what did i do?
14:13:58 <tcohen> Joubu: humans are very weird creatures, don't try to understand
14:14:12 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
14:14:16 <cait> sorry, almost missed the meeting
14:15:09 <cait> #info Documentation Sprint Day is now and until 4 October had ended everywhere
14:16:55 <cait> Joubu++
14:18:05 <kidclamp> I think the QA discussion should continue in email so we can keep this meeting general
14:18:28 <Joubu> definitely
14:18:53 <kidclamp> #topic Update on releases
14:19:19 <kidclamp> cait?
14:19:19 <wahanui> cait is the best friend you could ever have.
14:19:25 <cait> wow today...
14:19:26 <wahanui> today is probably bug-squashing day
14:19:28 <kidclamp> wahanui botsnack
14:19:29 <wahanui> thanks kidclamp :)
14:19:53 <cait> #info 16.11.13 is on schedule for release around 22 October
14:20:08 <cait> #info Release managers are trying to coordinate so packages are available on release day
14:20:11 <cait> hm
14:20:14 <cait> release mainteiners...
14:21:21 <kidclamp> fridolin?
14:21:21 <wahanui> fridolin is busy at the moment, I asked him to backport the bug fix
14:22:08 <kidclamp> Joubu?
14:22:08 <wahanui> Joubu is not sure how to fix that correctly
14:22:22 <fridolin> kidclamp:  yep ?
14:22:23 <wahanui> yep.
14:22:35 <kidclamp> ah, update on 17.05?
14:22:40 <kidclamp> fridolin ^
14:22:55 <fridolin> i'looking at my skedule
14:23:01 <BobB> #info Bob Birchall, Calyx, Australia
14:23:12 <Joubu> #info if you need update about the RM, read dev meetings minutes or last "what's on in koha-devel" on the koha website
14:23:16 <BobB> hi all, just woke up, so here I am :)
14:23:23 <Joubu> sorry I cannot repeat myself every week
14:23:29 <kidclamp> np Joubu
14:23:30 <fridolin> #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre, France
14:24:11 <fridolin> 17.05.05 release after 23 oct i'd say
14:24:12 <Joubu> let's move on kidclamp
14:25:07 <kidclamp> #topic KohaCon 18
14:25:49 <oleonard> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon18_Proposals
14:26:00 <kidclamp> there is a proposal to vote on new deadline for submissions as the last was not published
14:27:05 <cait> that's from me
14:27:25 <cait> we agreed on a date, but I didn't see it on the mailing list or bidding page, so I think we should reschedule and announce properly
14:27:33 <oleonard> +1
14:27:53 <mveron> +1
14:28:02 <kidclamp> do you think 2 weeks is sufficient? don't want to push back decision too far
14:28:03 <cait> better safe than sorry :)
14:28:26 <tcohen> there's only one bid
14:28:54 <tcohen> for september
14:28:55 <cait> yah, but in case somene says later they wanted to add a bid too
14:29:12 <cait> could we extend the bid until the next meeting?
14:29:13 <tcohen> one or two weeks won't hurt
14:29:42 <kidclamp> next meeting makes sense to me, do we want to vote then? so make the dealine midnight day before
14:29:52 <tcohen> +1
14:30:02 <cait> sounds good
14:30:11 <georgewilliams> +1
14:30:18 <khall> +1
14:30:23 <mveron> +1
14:30:34 <lisettelatah> +1
14:31:07 <kidclamp> any dissenters?
14:31:14 <cait> if there is only one vote we can announce, if another is added we need to make a survey i think
14:31:21 <cait> to stick with procedure
14:31:47 <kidclamp> ah, okay
14:32:22 <kidclamp> #agreed Dealine for KohaCon 18 submissions extended to end of the day 17 October 2017
14:32:29 <kidclamp> you want to send that out cait?
14:33:07 <cait> super busy, can someone else do it plz?
14:33:55 <oleonard> I'll do it
14:34:00 <kidclamp> oleonard++
14:34:05 <cait> oleonard++
14:34:19 <kidclamp> magnuse about?
14:34:28 <tcohen> oleonard++
14:34:43 <kidclamp> next topic is his unless anyone else can explain for help files
14:35:19 <cait> hm maybe i can help out
14:35:24 <cait> sec, looking at the agenda
14:35:46 <cait> the basic problem is that the help files included in Koha are copies of the text in the manual
14:35:49 <kidclamp> #topic Alternatives for help files
14:36:06 <cait> that is not a good way of doing things - it means Nicole manually copied text into each file and submitted patches
14:36:15 <cait> and if things get outdated, you have to maintain 2 files
14:36:20 <cait> translators have to translate twice
14:36:35 <cait> another separate problem: local changes to help files get overwritten on update
14:36:54 <cait> the main difference between help files and manual now is that they don't include links and are translated with Koha
14:37:14 <cait> I think we need to find a way that pulls things from the manual or maybe even link to it directly
14:37:32 <cait> but possibly can only do that once translation for the manula is sorted
14:37:44 <cait> there have been several bugs filed aruond the issue that magnuse put on a wiki page:
14:37:49 <cait> https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Alternatives_for_help_files
14:38:27 <cait> we coud have a script pull the text maybe, but difficult to avoid double work for translators
14:38:36 <cait> we could deliver Koha with the manual and link to it
14:38:50 <cait> but I guess there is size to consider here
14:39:13 <cait> one bug suggests using a wiki... but we just switched to sphinx and I don't think having doubled up docs is feasable
14:39:20 <cait> etc.
14:39:36 <cait> ideas and such welcome :)
14:39:48 <BobB> good explanation cait, thank you
14:39:59 <mveron> Bug 18483 allows to have your own local help text. It can exist together with other help systems (managed by a syspref)
14:39:59 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18483 enhancement, P4, ---, veron, Signed Off , Customised help: Enhance staff client with news based, easily editable help system
14:40:02 <Joubu> we could try to generate the help files from the manual, automatically
14:40:26 <cait> reading back: not include screenshots, the help files have links, but no pictures
14:40:39 <marcelr> is there a way to check if we are not overwriting updated online help ?
14:40:41 <kidclamp> #info in a nutshell the issue is that help files duplicate the manual, require doulbe translations, and are overwritten on updates
14:41:08 <kidclamp> #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Alternatives_for_help_files Current bugs/options for dealing with help files
14:41:08 <cait> Joubu: yeah, but how to handle translations?
14:41:11 <Joubu> missed that line
14:41:35 <cait> kidclamp: nice summary .)
14:42:04 <cait> there is actually a lot more interest in translating the manual than I woudl have thought
14:43:05 <cait> maybe there is a way to script things to work all together, translate onces, use those translations for help files and a full manual?
14:43:12 <Joubu> yes... just highlight the stuffs that are pulled to make them a priority for translators
14:43:25 <cait> and have a separte feature to store local additions
14:43:38 <cait> it's the same tex
14:43:45 <cait> i think we should really try to avoid double translation
14:43:52 <cait> it#s super painful
14:43:55 <mveron> +1
14:44:46 <cait> if the strings are the same, coudl we not take what was translated for the manual and have that in the po file for the help file somehow?
14:47:02 <Joubu> I will need to take a closer look, but it sounds tricky
14:47:29 <Joubu> do we want offline help?
14:47:47 <kidclamp> yes
14:47:51 <Joubu> otherwise we could imagine a webservice
14:47:52 <mveron> yes
14:48:01 <mveron> ..for offline help
14:48:06 <cait> I think it might be a requirement in some contexts
14:48:19 <Joubu> yes
14:48:29 <Joubu> so it sounds tricky :)
14:48:46 <cait> a local copy with a configurable url might be an option?
14:49:29 <cait> but probably woudl be hard for some to do
14:50:00 <Joubu> the easiest would be to point to the manual directly yes, instead of recreating something else based on the manual
14:50:52 <cait> not sure, shoudl we get some opinions on that?
14:51:18 <Joubu> syspref which points to the k-c.org/manual, but people could clone the manual and modify the pref?
14:51:25 <cait> a configurable url would be good anyway, so you can decide which language manual to link to
14:51:40 <cait> something like that
14:51:45 <Joubu> and we remove all the help/* files from the koha codebase
14:52:13 <cait> hm, not sure how mveron's feature would work
14:52:28 <mveron> Did you test it? - It works nicely
14:52:49 <cait> didn't test, but worried removing the help files would hurt it
14:52:49 <mveron> See my comment #21 on 18483
14:53:12 <mveron> No. Just some small changes necessary.
14:53:18 <cait> Joubu: if we remove help files, where do we store the link to themanual?
14:53:38 <mveron> Could be anaged by the syspref i introduced.
14:53:54 <mveron> managed (Sorry bad eyes today)
14:53:57 <Joubu> we will need a mapping koha page<=>manual
14:54:00 <cait> yep
14:54:05 <cait> maybeTT plugin and a mapping file?
14:54:21 <cait> maybe move the technical discussion out of the meeting
14:54:29 <cait> is this solution agreeable to people present?
14:54:36 <kidclamp> I+1
14:54:39 <kidclamp> +1
14:55:14 <marcelr> maybe first present it to the dev list ?
14:55:34 <mveron> +1
14:55:44 <cait> maybe translators too?
14:55:54 <cait> and i think we can't make the move before it's possible again to translate the manual
14:56:13 <mveron> Yes, translating the manual is a must
14:56:43 <magnuse> #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
14:56:54 <rangi> i havent caught up with bernardo yet sorry
14:57:11 <kidclamp> #info proposal is a syspref/mapping to local files and other wise pointing to the manual on the web
14:57:20 <cait> hm ok, let's send the proposal once we have checked with bernardo
14:57:46 <kidclamp> #info email will be sent to devs/translators once manual translation is sorted again
14:57:46 <cait> you can action item me for that
14:58:03 <kidclamp> #action cait will check with bernardo and send proposal
14:58:26 <kidclamp> magnuse: once you catch up on scrollback let us know if you have additions
14:58:37 <kidclamp> your topic was hijacked :-)
14:58:54 <cait> I had talked to him about it before, so I hope it was ok :)
14:59:06 <mveron> Did anybody try out Bug 18483?
14:59:06 <huginn`> 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18483 enhancement, P4, ---, veron, Signed Off , Customised help: Enhance staff client with news based, easily editable help system
14:59:23 * magnuse wanted to spark a discussion and seems to have succeeded :-)
14:59:54 <reiveune> bye
15:00:16 <magnuse> Nothing special to add, I think
15:00:33 <kidclamp> we are at an hour - next meeting 18 October 2017, 21 UTC?
15:01:36 <kidclamp> or maybe 19 UTC? later is better for NZ I think, but earlier sometimes nets more people? I am open
15:03:30 <oleonard> Neither are great for me, but 21UTC is better, FWIW
15:03:31 <cait> daylight savings soon now, so things are moving around a bit
15:03:44 <cait> late here, but not impossible :)
15:04:17 <kidclamp> yeah, 21 is 5 here so is workable
15:04:22 <kidclamp> #topic Next meeting
15:04:44 <kidclamp> #info next meeting: 18 October 2017, 21 UTC
15:05:01 <kidclamp> last chance everyone ;-b
15:06:03 <kidclamp> #endmeeting