13:02:03 <davidnind> #startmeeting Documentation IRC meeting 1 August 2019
13:02:03 <huginn`> Meeting started Thu Aug  1 13:02:03 2019 UTC.  The chair is davidnind. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:02:03 <huginn`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
13:02:03 <huginn`> The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_irc_meeting_1_august_2019'
13:02:19 <davidnind> #topic Introductions
13:02:35 <davidnind> #info David Nind, Wellington, New Zealand
13:03:10 <cait> #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
13:03:16 <AndyBoze> #info Andy Boze, University of Notre Dame, USA
13:03:51 <cait> caroline_catlady: ping
13:04:06 <alex_a_> cait, nice
13:04:08 <alex_a_> Thx!
13:04:18 <caroline_catlady> hi just got in!
13:04:28 <caroline_catlady> #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro
13:04:45 <thd> #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
13:04:45 <caroline_catlady> I always forget that the meeting is earlier now
13:05:05 <davidnind> Hi caroline_catlady and cait!
13:05:20 <caroline_catlady> hi davidnind!
13:05:20 <davidnind> #info Agenda https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Documentation_IRC_meeting_1_August_2019
13:05:38 <davidnind> #topic Action points
13:05:49 <davidnind> hi thd!
13:05:55 <thd> hello
13:05:55 <wahanui> que tal, thd
13:06:16 <davidnind> The list seems to get longer!
13:06:42 <cait> fridolin: joining the docs meeting? :)
13:07:01 <davidnind> :)
13:07:07 <caroline_catlady> way to recruit cait! +1
13:07:17 <fridolin> cait: sorry im really under water
13:07:20 <fridolin> bloup
13:07:58 <davidnind> throws a life raft..(or maybe water wings)
13:08:19 <davidnind> Have been having fun over the last few days working through some of the action points, but nothing significant to report
13:09:14 <davidnind> working through the installation guide is going okay, but is a little challenging, so hopefully some updates in the next few days
13:09:23 <cait> fridolin: don't drown please!
13:09:31 <caroline_catlady> me either for git guide... I started a paper and pen draft, but it's just got "git" at the top ^^;;
13:09:49 <cait> it's a start
13:09:53 <cait> and you got over the blank paper
13:10:05 <cait> I've tried to pick up some small tasks
13:10:10 <fridolin> thanks ;)
13:10:33 <davidnind> cait++
13:10:40 <cait> but really small stuff
13:10:59 <davidnind> rangi always seems to beat me to the doing the merges!
13:11:02 <AndyBoze> I was looking to work on some easy tasks like capitalization. Having a problem with GitLab, thouhg. Viewer won't start, just get an error.
13:11:03 <cait> davidnind++ caroline_catlady++ holly++
13:11:18 <cait> AndyBoze: i had that too, but clicking edit still worked
13:11:29 <cait> even if the view seemed broken
13:12:19 <AndyBoze> Gee, didn't think to try that. :-(
13:12:35 <tcohen> morning
13:12:41 <caroline_catlady> going back to action points, do we know if the wiki software has been updated?
13:13:07 <thd> Updating is non-trivial
13:13:20 <magnuse> <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.16.2" />
13:13:23 <thd> We discussed the issue a little in the general meeting.
13:13:35 <davidnind> I think I've clicked 'raw' or used the Web IDE
13:14:01 <cait> i think the conclusion at the meeting was favoring a fresh start
13:14:09 <cait> with the wiki software to investigate
13:14:09 <caroline_catlady> really?
13:14:09 <wahanui> i think really is good to have josef_moravec back.. always get a boost from seeing a bunch of signoffs :)
13:14:16 <cait> Equinox still willing to host
13:14:29 <cait> and davidnind volunteering to do help with planning?
13:14:38 <thd> Suggestions were made to possibly start over.  The problem is that the existing MediaWiki install uses Postgres.
13:15:13 <thd> I have started work again to try the following: http://www.winterrodeln.org/trac/wiki/MediaWikiPostgresqlToMysql
13:15:26 <thd> http://www.winterrodeln.org/trac/browser/servermediawiki/trunk/pgsqltomysql/pgsqltomysql.py
13:15:57 <davidnind> #info Wiki software update bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23073
13:15:57 <huginn`> 04Bug 23073: normal, P5 - low, ---, gmc, NEW , wiki.koha-community.org needs updating to a later version
13:16:21 <thd> I think we should experiment with options.
13:16:42 <davidnind> Also, I've haven;t added any notes yet from the general meeting - there was some good discussion
13:17:42 <thd> The problems with the current WiKi stem largely from the experiment being cut short by business conflict over which the old wiki was shut down and outside community control.
13:17:49 * caroline_catlady should read minutes for meetings she misses -_-
13:18:07 <davidnind> I'm still keen on using WikiMedia, there are some really nice things in later versions
13:18:21 <thd> The experiment with Postgres suddenly became the default with no testing.
13:19:11 <thd> I am setting up a new server to test migration to MySQL when I last had time disk space was less of an issue.
13:19:50 <thd> Current Postgres dump size which may be a vervose dump seems to be about 100 GB.
13:20:18 <davidnind> that's big!
13:20:22 <davidnind> thd++
13:20:40 <thd> I also intend to put up an empty test for faceted use.
13:21:30 <thd> I had always intended to put forward a specific proposal about transitioning to faceting tagging with SemanticMediaWiki.
13:21:47 <thd> SemanticMediaWiki does not work with Postgres.
13:22:46 <davidnind> #info Wiki update: test server being setup and starting to work through migration options and issues
13:22:53 <thd> gmcharlt and I did not know that Postgres did not work with SemanticMediaWiki when we put up the initial MediaWiki test which then suddenly became the default.
13:23:55 <thd> The big problem with simply updating without migrating to MySQL is that the only migration scripts we have are old like the version of the Wiki.
13:24:43 <thd> If we update without migrating then we may be unable to migrate to MySQL for proper functionality later.
13:25:12 <cait> I hurt a bit for all the work a migration would mean... setting up a new installation might give us some advantage - a lot of the information on the current wiki is not really well structured and outdated
13:25:42 <cait> and it seems it woudl avoid a lot of painful work that might still leave us with some issues if not everything works perfectly
13:25:44 <thd> Sadly I was a couple of days from testing migration a few years ago when I was a couple of days away from a test.
13:25:59 <thd> We should test both migration and starting over.
13:26:16 <cait> ok
13:26:20 <caroline_catlady> Does starting over need a test?
13:26:25 <thd> Yes, much is outdated and everything needs appropriate labelling.
13:26:54 <thd> Starting over should have a test about how to approach tagging content so that it is findable.
13:27:28 <thd> A plan for tagging content was a major issue of the first KohaCon.
13:28:11 <thd> The trouble at the time was that almost no wiki content was ever tagged and then it became lost in Dokuwiki.
13:28:39 <thd> I have a commitment to marking everything old.
13:29:32 <thd> I now have three days a week at a counter with a computer in front of me with time between book buys to do a lot of marking things obsolete.
13:29:54 <caroline_catlady> cool!
13:30:02 <davidnind> Excellent!
13:30:02 <wahanui> darn tootin' it is.
13:30:18 <davidnind> I started work on a structure/plan for the content but haven't got too far yet! There are some nicely organised areas (like the dev manual), but others not so much...
13:30:32 <davidnind> I think it is great that we've made a start, even though there are going to be some 'challenges' along the way
13:30:34 <thd> We should also not be making wood!  I really do understand rangi's retort about the state of the wiki.
13:30:58 <davidnind> wood?
13:31:24 <thd> My elderly neighbour for whom I cared for eight years has passed on and now I do not have to devote all my time to her.
13:31:40 <thd> rangi meant that it was not flexible.
13:31:49 <davidnind> aah!
13:31:53 <thd> Not to interpret for him.
13:32:00 <thd> Faceting is flexible.
13:32:50 <davidnind> Anything else at this stage on the wiki? It's great a start is being made
13:33:04 <thd> The categories adopted in a hierarchical manner and other things were partly a legacy of the only way to have a browsable list of tagged content in Dokuwiki.
13:33:22 <thd> MediaWiki is much more flexible in that regard.
13:33:39 <thd> I am very behind and very sorry about that.
13:34:12 <davidnind> thd++
13:34:21 <thd> davidnind: I may need your help or anyone else to test migration or help me with bugs in migration.
13:34:59 <davidnind> happy to help!
13:35:19 <cait> me too :)
13:35:29 <thd> The python script we have to test migration has hard coded variable names.  I suppose we can always try to reach out to the author to be sure we have identified the variable names.
13:36:38 <thd> I have created the testing server on Linode.  My own host is much less flexible for scaling up memory or disc space to accommodate 100GB.
13:37:59 <thd> If there are problems with current versions of Postgres, MySQL. or Python using the 7 year old migration script and the old Postgres database I intend to go backwards in versions until it works.
13:39:01 <thd> While the MediaWiki version is old we have alway kept PHP and the underlying Debian version sufficiently up to date to mitigate against security issues.
13:39:37 <davidnind> that sounds laborious and time consuming!
13:40:12 <davidnind> #info Wiki update - have kept PHP + Debian OS up-to-date
13:40:15 <thd> It may work perfectly at the first attempt.
13:40:27 <thd> We do not know unless we try to test.
13:40:44 <davidnind> that would be great if it does!
13:41:19 <davidnind> Thanks thd!
13:41:21 <thd> Even if we ultimately choose to archive the old state, I would like to work on the old to put in a much better state than it has devolved into.
13:42:45 <davidnind> #info Updating existing wiki content or marking as obsolete will help with migration - please help out if you can
13:42:52 <thd> I started trying to do this two weeks ago when the issue was getting attention again and I had some time but I had lost track of the old equinox servername fo ssh access.
13:44:20 <davidnind> Is it okay to move on to the next agenda items? I'm conscious of the time.. seems like we are starting to get some some traction on the wiki update, so that is great
13:44:27 <thd> Looking at the server for the first time in a which gmcharlt really did a very thorough job for automated backup dumps etc.  Some things are also under version control.
13:44:35 <thd> Yes sorry.
13:45:16 <gmcharlt> as an aside, my immediate plans on the hosting front are to
13:45:24 <gmcharlt> 1. set up an empty new VM by next week
13:45:41 <thd> Again, I am not sorry for helping my neighbour who had no one else but I am sorry that my personal commitments to help people who really need it take away from my other activities.
13:45:52 <gmcharlt> 2. attempt a trial mediawiki upgrade, mostly for the sake of finding immediate gotchas
13:46:04 <cait> gmcharlt++
13:46:49 <thd> gmcharlt did you see the links I posted about the migration script?
13:46:49 <davidnind> gmcharlt++
13:47:01 <davidnind> thd++
13:47:15 <thd> http://www.winterrodeln.org/trac/wiki/MediaWikiPostgresqlToMysql
13:47:27 <thd> http://www.winterrodeln.org/trac/browser/servermediawiki/trunk/pgsqltomysql/pgsqltomysql.py
13:47:27 <oleonard> gmcharlt++
13:48:02 <davidnind> #topic What's been done so far
13:48:33 <davidnind> Sorry, probably need to cover the rest of the items:-D
13:49:12 <davidnind> I've added a quick update on the agenda of changes made to the manual, thank you everyone for the updates!
13:49:49 <davidnind> Only other thing is that we (caroline_catlady + myself) have access to the Koha YouTube channel
13:50:07 <davidnind> Working on getting the Kohacon19 videos up
13:50:44 <davidnind> at some stage we could look at how we could use YouTube for the documentation - short tutorials, etc
13:50:56 <oleonard> [off] more cat videos on Koha YouTube!
13:51:26 <gmcharlt> [off] /me stares at the cat on top of my desk
13:51:51 <davidnind> hehe :)
13:52:06 <davidnind> you can never have enough cat videos!
13:52:17 <davidnind> anyone else aware of other things being done?
13:52:49 <cait> #info caroline_catlady and davidnind have access to the YouTube channel now
13:53:04 <caroline_catlady> sorry, not here for the moment
13:53:24 <davidnind> #topic Workflow
13:54:34 <caroline_catlady> back!
13:55:05 <davidnind> I've worked through the workflow a couple of times, so have some minor updates to make - may ask some questions about git and the workflow at some stage
13:56:24 <davidnind> There is a proposal for the coding guidelines from ashimema about documenting new features
13:56:46 <davidnind> #info DOC2 coding guideline https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Talk:Coding_Guidelines#Documentation
13:58:08 <davidnind> I don't know enough about it, but it seems like a good idea - new features get documented (or initial draft) by those who worked on it (if I understand that right)
13:58:22 <caroline_catlady> I think that was his intention, yes
13:58:36 <cait> i like it, but it might ned a little active pushing
13:58:52 <caroline_catlady> ashimema got his whip out
13:58:56 <cait> heh
13:59:04 <cait> QA will push too of course
13:59:17 <cait> i think even if we got a textual draft instead of a patch it woudl be helpful
13:59:46 <cait> i got a question too - is onw a good moment?
13:59:49 <davidnind> having some sort of template for the different types of changes may help as well
14:00:01 <davidnind> go ahead cait!
14:00:11 <cait> I noticed there is an 'approval' feature on gitlab
14:00:23 <cait> i treid it out and rangi said it was helpful for him because it helps to decide what is good to push
14:00:42 <cait> we haven't made it mandatory, but maybe as a first step if people agree it's helpful we coudl encourage using it?
14:00:54 <cait> there is also a thumbs up thing
14:01:32 <cait> hm that said i am not sure how gets to see the approve tag, but i think the thumbs up and down are always there
14:03:24 <cait> just an idea to throw out
14:03:26 <davidnind> It seems worth trying - if I understand it right before something is merged, someone else would have to review and approve the proposed changes?
14:03:29 <cait> i think pushing the button won#t hurt :)
14:03:42 <cait> I would not propose to make ti mandatory right now
14:04:23 <caroline_catlady> I like the idea of revewing (just to get typos, for example), but it seems time consuming
14:04:24 <cait> i mean we could, but with the still low submission rate it might make things slower
14:04:29 <cait> yeah
14:04:30 <caroline_catlady> We are not a lot of people
14:04:34 <cait> yep
14:04:53 <caroline_catlady> I'm not against it
14:04:55 <cait> just wanted to see if we'd like to play with it
14:05:09 <davidnind> seems a good idea to me
14:05:18 <davidnind> #info look at using approval process in GitLab before changes are merged, not mandatory at this stage
14:05:29 <cait> so people know those feature are there if they want to give a +1 to a merge request pending
14:06:40 <cait> that was all from me :)
14:06:44 <davidnind> it is always a good idea for someone else to have a look if that is possible
14:06:51 <davidnind> thanks cait!
14:07:59 <davidnind> I take it everyone is supportive of ashimema's proposal to get some initial documentation written for new features, for teh documentation team to tidy up and incorporate?
14:08:16 <caroline_catlady> makes a lot of sense to me
14:08:29 <caroline_catlady> the devs know what they code
14:09:11 <cait> +1
14:09:53 <davidnind> I know it sometimes takes me a while to work out what a bug is supposed to do, so having some initial info to work with would be great!
14:10:00 <davidnind> +1 from me as well
14:10:39 <davidnind> #info DOC2 coding guideline: if anyone else has additional ideas or thoughts please add to the talk page https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Talk:Coding_Guidelines#Documentation
14:11:05 <davidnind> #topic Set time for next meeting
14:11:14 <davidnind> Jumping right to the end!
14:12:08 <davidnind> 6 September 2019 13:00 UTC for the next meeting?
14:12:09 <davidnind> Does anyone know whether earlier or later would work for Kelly?
14:12:59 <davidnind> We can change if needed
14:13:04 <caroline_catlady> sept 6 is a friday (here), is that what you were aiming for?
14:13:12 <caroline_catlady> I don't mind I'm here all week
14:13:45 <davidnind> oops - that should have been the 5th!
14:13:55 <caroline_catlady> ok! :)
14:14:19 <davidnind> time zones!
14:14:23 <davidnind> #info Next meeting 5 September 2019 13:00 UTC
14:14:30 <AndyBoze> Sept 5 works for me.
14:14:52 <caroline_catlady> works for me too
14:14:56 <davidnind> Thanks AndyBoze!
14:15:19 <davidnind> Will check with Kelly and adjust if needed
14:15:19 <cait> btw - great picture on twitter for  the meeting advertisement :)
14:16:14 * caroline_catlady is so bad with twitter
14:17:15 <caroline_catlady> ooh yeah it's nice :)
14:18:00 <davidnind> Credit to Lisette for that! She came up with the updated banner and a picture for meetings during the Koha Community Day.
14:18:26 <davidnind> #endmeeting