20:04:27 #startmeeting General IRC meeting 10 July 2019 20:04:27 Meeting started Wed Jul 10 20:04:27 2019 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:04:27 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 20:04:27 The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019' 20:04:35 #topic Introductions 20:04:44 Please introduce yourself using #info 20:04:52 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Today's agenda 20:04:59 #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 20:05:03 #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ 20:05:04 #info Charles Quain, Interleaf Technology 20:05:14 * ashimema tries to listen in 20:05:16 #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS-E 20:05:21 #info Brendan Gallagher, ByWater 20:05:23 thanks for stepping into the breach cait 20:05:24 can we add kohacon20 to the agenda cait ? 20:05:29 no worries 20:05:32 yep 20:05:38 do you want to add it to wiki? 20:05:39 just at the end is fine 20:05:43 will do 20:05:47 #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 20:05:52 thx 20:06:00 And add what to do with the KohaCon19 surplus? 20:06:23 ok, so maybe a Kohacon19/20 then :) 20:06:28 moving on 20:06:34 ah, waiting for davidnind 20:06:56 last chance to #info everyone :) 20:07:01 #info David Nind, New Zealand 20:07:05 #topic Announcements 20:07:07 just... 20:07:11 Any announcements? 20:07:14 Charles_Quain: i had an idea about that, we can come to it when we get to the kohacon topic ;) 20:07:16 Bring Guinness :) 20:07:40 heh 20:07:50 nothing going on? :) 20:08:01 Koha US maybe? 20:08:12 just a really busy year for all koha support companies it seems 20:08:23 has it ever been different? :) 20:08:30 nope :) 20:08:41 #info Registration for koha-US conference is open https://koha-us.org/2019/07/01/kohaus-conference-registration-open/ 20:08:42 Caroline was going to update us as to how the education meeting went wasn't she 20:08:45 There is a kohaus conference in September 20:08:54 #info Hackfest 2019 30 September to 4th Octoberhttps://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2019-July/053277.html 20:08:56 cait++ 20:09:00 oh.. she's also in the apologies 20:09:02 ah great, thx davidnind 20:09:11 hackfest is a great one to attend if you get a chance 20:09:24 true 20:09:33 one day 20:09:38 moving on 20:09:44 #topic Update on releases 20:09:49 i'll repeat from earlier today 20:10:02 #info Maintenance releases are moving along nicely 20:10:28 wizzyrea: want to add something? 20:10:57 ok, moving on :) 20:11:08 ah, rmaints dropping in 20:11:30 #info Moving into pushing small to medium sized enhancements on master now - out of bugfix only freeze period :) 20:11:42 cool :) 20:11:46 moving on now 20:12:05 #topic Wiki 20:12:16 #info Liz Rea 20:12:20 all eyes on agenda - reading quickly now :) 20:13:10 We discussed at the documentation meeting, but my memory has faded already... 20:14:02 In general I think we discussed updating to a recent version 20:14:11 I'd like us to think about even restarting 20:14:12 I added some contents to the wiki section of the agenda correcting for some mistaken notions. I have not added something appropriate to the wiki update bug yet. 20:14:19 i don't quit eshare the thought that stuff should never be deleted 20:14:29 yeah 20:14:39 I tihnk we might want to consider a restart 20:15:01 1.16 dates back to 2011 20:15:04 The problem with MediaWiki deletion is that it does not leave a history. 20:15:19 bug 23073 20:15:19 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23073 normal, P5 - low, ---, gmc, NEW , wiki.koha-community.org needs updating to a later version 20:15:28 it doesn't? O_o 20:15:36 #info current wiki version is 1.16, dating back to 2011 20:15:43 history is only deleted if the purge archive maintenance script is run 20:15:55 hi Nemo_bis, thx for chiming in 20:16:15 could you detail? so deleted pages could be recovered? 20:16:25 aka https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:DeleteArchivedRevisions.php 20:16:32 Ok, maybe I am mistaken. I know the big issue about which people complained when it has happened on Wikipedia. 20:16:34 that was my understanding too Nemo_bis, but I thought I might be out of date.. thanks for varifying 20:16:38 unless you delete directly from the database, yes 20:16:54 so what are peoples thoughts? 20:17:00 I think we can agree on 'needing a newer version'? 20:17:03 update or restart? 20:17:23 i dont mind either way, whatever is quicker 20:17:28 my feeling is that a large percentage of the current wiki content is actually more misleading than helpful 20:17:34 before we lose everything 20:17:46 rangi: lose everything? 20:17:48 I think that it would be easier to organise the existing content than start over. 20:18:00 The big issue is migrating the database. 20:18:07 cait: when someone exploits a 8 year old bug/hole and trashes the server 20:18:09 could we start afresh but leave the old one running for a while in case we do decide we want to migrate any particular pages? 20:18:19 rangi: makes sense... although i hope we have backups somewhere 20:18:28 ashimema: id agree with that 20:18:31 yeah, i was thinking something along these lines 20:18:36 hand-pick the good stuff 20:18:46 I think gmcharlt - y’all are hosting that right? (I can’t remember) 20:18:53 I’m sure they have backups 20:18:59 equinox for the wiki, yep 20:19:02 yep 20:19:10 * cait jumps 20:19:11 yeah they definitely have backups 20:19:15 backups are great as long as you notice it happening :) 20:19:21 heya galen 20:19:24 howdy 20:19:24 privet, gmcharlt 20:19:28 true 20:19:34 There may be backups but backups are only as good as the testing of those backups. 20:19:35 otherwsie you back up the mess too :) 20:20:00 but yeah i would agree with ashimema 20:20:06 gmcharlt: have you read back? we were discussion about updating the wiki 20:20:28 or... starting afresh on a new version 20:20:34 I'm amenable both to upgrading it and to starting fresh, preferably on something other than mediawiki 20:20:42 gmcharlt++ 20:20:45 do you have something in mind? 20:20:46 We could maintain the old content in an archived format which would not allow exploiting any MediaWiki bugs. 20:21:11 another software I mean 20:21:29 cait: dokuwiki, actually, for sake of simplicity, but I'm certainly open to other suggestions 20:21:43 We should be able to put the old one into read only (even if only at the db level) and still be able to get at the wiki markup of pages to grab the best bits manually as required.. I would imagine after a few months all the most helpful content would have been migrated 20:21:46 I still run my own dokuwiki... so I wouldn't mind 20:22:06 upgrading from MediaWiki 1.16 is not very hard 20:22:13 but that's not radically different to what we have now :) 20:22:14 I can help with it if needed 20:22:28 oh.. I'd not even considered using another wiki platform.. more than happy to be guided by others on that front 20:22:30 Direct updating without first migrating to MySQL will probably reach a deadend for some state of MediaWiki software and certainly prevent many proposed extensions etc. from working. 20:22:46 what is it running on now? postgres? 20:22:51 yes 20:23:17 It was an historical mistake when a test became the only wiki running. 20:23:23 what puts you off mediawiki gmcharlt ? 20:23:44 #info current Mediawiki is running on PostgreSQL 20:24:01 I've found the recent editors in mediawiki pretty straighforward 20:24:02 its big, its heavy, its wood 20:24:24 and we ended up inadvertantly on a less-well-supported path with running on on Pg 20:24:32 PostgreSQL is still officially supported, so any upgrade error would be a welcome bug report and is usually fixed (but yes, not necessarily fun) 20:25:09 I'm not strongly against it, but in (in comparison) have found dokuwiki sufficient for Evergreen's needs 20:25:18 The problem is not that Postgres is not supported at all. It is less well supported than MySQL. 20:25:28 thd: no doubt about that :) 20:25:49 #idea Change of wiki platform, for example to DokuWiki (no database needed, easier to maintain) 20:25:51 A couple extensions here are not supported any more but I'm not sure they're in wide use https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Special:Version 20:25:58 though of course, for both projects, there's certainly always the perpetual problem of wanting as much wiki librarian cycles as we can get to keep content fresh and organized 20:26:16 good point 20:26:23 wiki librarian cycles? 20:26:29 I found docuwiki to have huge problems where it had become unmanageable with unlinked content and lacking the level of features provided by MediaWiki. 20:26:32 and I /don't/ belive that mediawiki vs dokuwiki makes a great deal of difference as far as that's concerned 20:26:34 dokuwiki's simplicity is often deceptive more than real (but I'm a biased MediaWiki person of course) 20:26:48 a curator? 20:27:01 However, MediaWiki was supposed to be a test. 20:27:05 any wiki is as good as the content and organization 20:27:12 I think we don't use a lot of the features right now 20:27:27 maybe the templating things 20:27:27 A first step then would be to reduce the complexity of the installation 20:27:34 i am not aware that Dokuwiki has that 20:27:34 Do you really need SemanticMediaWiki, for instance? 20:27:41 Nemo_bis: I'd say no 20:28:24 ok, next steps? 20:28:29 If we migrate to MySQL or start over with MediaWiki we could then add SemanticMediaWiKi which has much to support the work of keeping everything in good order. 20:28:43 yeah i dont think lack of features has ever been an issue, more no one is cleaning dead/wrong content 20:28:43 I believe our use of semanticmediawiki is broken anyway 20:29:18 * ashimema agrees with rangi 20:29:20 yeah, tooling goes but so far w/o concentrated wikilibrarian/curator effort 20:29:23 We do not have any use of SemanticMediaWiki other than it may have been installed. 20:29:42 though.. on the few occasions I've tried to maintain I found our version of mediawiki challenging to organise 20:30:04 we really need somewhat of a plan for organising content from day one and a guide for new submissions 20:30:25 * ashimema curated a few wiki's over the years.. including openstreetmaps one 20:30:51 ashimema: so, a question for you: how many folks would you want with you in a committed curator corps? 20:30:58 Organisation is really about assigning tags and categories which mostly never happened when we were using Docuwiki. 20:31:06 ashimema is RM currently... so not sure we hsould lay more on him 20:31:11 As much as I love SemanticMediaWiki, I don't feel we need the added complexity it adds on day one 20:31:11 but i know the docs team was interested 20:31:12 davidnind: ? 20:31:18 haha 20:31:37 happy to help and guide.. but yeah.. i've low on tuits being RM and all ;) 20:31:39 actually this was brought over as a topic from docs meeting 20:31:42 gmcharlt and all - I think this is a good topic to bring up during that new “trainers” sub-group that is going 20:31:46 the discussion was around getting someone to do it, which is the bit that is missing at the moment 20:31:53 or what cait said 20:31:56 Nemo_bis sounds very knowledgable.. sounds like a good condidate? 20:32:05 MediaWiki makes it very easy to find lost content to tag and categorise it. Docuwiki did not seem to have any way to identify such unlinked content. 20:32:25 ah yes, MediaWiki is good for obsessive taggers :) 20:32:43 davidnind, do you have any sort of proposals/notions of what content belongs where? 20:33:02 what exactly do we want a wiki for (bearing in mind the efforts going into the manual etc) 20:33:15 ok, I think maybe we need to break here with osme #actions for next meeting? 20:33:34 In Docuwiki most of our content could only be found by searching in the dark with respect to the actual content. 20:33:36 #agreed current wiki software is way out of date and we need to remedy that 20:33:39 not really, but I think we need a plan - whihc I'm happy to help with/lead 20:33:39 good plan cait 20:34:02 * ashimema is enjoying the distraction from playing nurse 20:34:17 gmcharlt: as you are currently running Mediawiki - what woudl we need to do? 20:34:25 first action right there cait.. david has offered to help create a plan :) 20:34:41 davidnind: you ok to be named 'lead of wiki update'? 20:34:43 ashimema: since I think we have a consensus (?) about starting fressh 20:35:07 cait: yep, ties in with documentation well 20:35:12 we should also decide on naming releases after muppets today *hides* 20:35:18 first task I think would be carving out hosting some where with a fresh mediawiki/dokuwiki/out-come-of-rock-paper-scissors-wiki install 20:35:29 cait++ 20:35:29 #action davidnind named as 'lead of wiki update' - will try and help get a plan down 20:35:49 (and potentially see if there's other stuff that trainers/docs would want?) 20:36:06 gmcharlt: would Equinox be willing to continue hosting? 20:36:14 gmcharlt: Agree entirely 20:36:27 cait: yep, we'd will willing to set up another VM and host $newwiki 20:36:42 #info Equinox willing to continue hosting the wiki 20:37:11 #info Consensus on starting fresh with a plan to keep things organized 20:37:32 #info Wiki software to be discussed (continue with new Mediawiki, use Dokuwiki, use $wiki) 20:37:42 We might do what was suddenly not done when the old wiki went down which was to test different possibilities and choose what seems to work best with actual testing. 20:37:57 #action add Wiki and requirements/wish list for future to next educator's meeting 20:38:36 maybe if we have a wiki page set up we could collect some ideas 20:38:41 ok, so far so good? 20:38:45 i'd move on then 20:38:51 great 20:39:19 #topic Update/obsolete installation guides on wiki 20:39:25 davidnind: could you? 20:39:43 my brain is mush today 20:39:46 thanks all for that.. very productive 20:39:56 #MESSAGE gmcharlt gmcharlt: I would like to update my ssh access to preserve some things which may otherwise be lost to history. 20:40:16 the idea I think was to have a 'proper' installation guide 20:40:32 either on the wiki or separately as part of the manual 20:40:41 we have a lot of htem right now, but I think we only link a few in release notes 20:40:43 there are so many guides available when you goodle it 20:40:51 I'd vote for in the manual 20:40:52 google it 20:41:13 it often leads to issues when people follow hte ones outside of the wiki... but the wiki ones can be tricky too 20:41:25 wherever it is we need to keep current (as most things documentation) 20:41:34 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Installation_Documentation Release notes link to this page for installation guides 20:42:20 one install guide for the majority and in the manual and other guides should be categorized into development install types 20:42:21 I'm working through the main ones at the moment on the wiki (Debian + Ubuntu packages) 20:42:31 The manual should be primary but there should always be room for details, comments, etc. in the wiki which could not fit in a clear manual. 20:42:48 in reality it feels like we've reached a maturity level in the project where there is really only one 'recommended' install type 20:42:54 the others are all developer oriented 20:43:14 thd: good idea - there are always lost of nuances 20:43:22 ashimema: yes 20:43:46 so is everyone okay with this approach, and we work out the details of the best way to do this 20:43:50 we are talking packages right? 20:43:55 davidnind: i am 20:44:03 me too 20:44:05 speaking of isntallation, I think we must come up with a better use for old Apollo guidance computers than mining bitcoin 20:44:10 #info Package installation is the recommended installation method 20:44:17 obvious, I hope folks get inspired to work on a Koha port ;) 20:44:53 my tape machine no longer works... 20:45:22 so suggestions? 20:45:54 hi caroline_catlady :) 20:46:04 hi! did I miss the meeting? 20:46:09 either a separate official guide or part of the manual, with a place somewhere (wiki?) for notes and variations 20:46:11 we tasked you with everything noone else wanted to do ;) 20:46:17 hehe! 20:46:29 ok, so one official installation gude focused on packages? 20:46:35 :) 20:46:42 ++ 20:46:49 #idea have one official installation guide for a package installation, variations for devs in the wiki 20:47:29 success will be the official guide is the first google/bing/duckduck go result :) 20:47:30 #info remember to change links in the release note scripts once in place 20:47:52 is someone willing to clean up the package install gude for the manual? 20:48:09 I'm working through that with a local vm 20:48:25 feeling slightly bad about tasking you again, but I will 20:48:26 cool davidnind 20:48:30 will probably pester dev list with questions I have that don't make sense to me 20:48:41 (Meanwhile, Debian packages are the best way to install MediaWiki as well, if you are on Debian. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Legoktm/Packages ) 20:48:50 #action davidnind working through installation guide currently for updating 20:49:01 ok, moving on to last topic for tonight? 20:49:10 davidnind++ too 20:49:33 #topic Koha Community Project Day 20:49:43 this was a last minute addition form me 20:50:07 was thining about how to wake things up a bit 20:50:14 we are all crazy busy so it's hard to make progress on stuff 20:50:31 maybe if set a date and people put down possible projects/tasks... things they want to work on 20:50:46 like a virtual hackfest? 20:50:49 yeah a bit 20:50:49 was wanting to do a doc sprint at some stage (outstanding action point for me), maybe over a week 20:50:53 not only focused on bugs 20:51:06 clean up wiki pages... check website content... could be anything 20:51:13 write a new plugin 20:51:34 check_website_content++ 20:51:36 cait++ 20:51:37 would that be something people would like to participate in? 20:51:56 sounds like a great idea 20:52:09 maybe a theme for each month and a 24 hour day, or a day a month with people working on whatever strikes their fancy? 20:52:15 yep 20:52:31 like the bug squash magnuse used to run 20:52:43 yep, just a bit broader 20:52:47 not only bug squashing 20:52:54 sounds awesome 20:53:03 I wish we had more ways/better ways to reward and therefore incentivise people to do more 20:53:11 it's true 20:53:20 so... maybe starting with a doodle to find a date? 20:53:24 and people interested? 20:53:44 i could try to set that up this or beginning of next week 20:53:54 probably at a company level.. I see alot of individuals really committed but it's often also a battle for those people to justify working on the less obviously rewarding to companies work 20:54:01 * caroline_catlady thinks saving kittens is a pretty good incentive 20:54:18 i feel we also got a lot of other thing sstuck 20:54:27 for short run things I agree caroline 20:54:29 so testing out wikis and thinking about structure could also be a project 20:54:30 i think the thing is to pick a date a little way out, and just say thats it 20:54:41 ok, i coudl do that 20:54:44 then companies/people can organise to be free that day 20:54:45 and those short bursts certainly get things moving.. so I'm totally game for them 20:54:46 agree 20:54:48 among people here... any preferneces for hte day of week? 20:54:53 eaiser than trying to find a day that works 20:55:30 I dont like Wedensdays 20:55:36 noted 20:55:37 InLibro already have community fridays don't they? 20:55:47 and we loosly have fridays as a more flexible day 20:56:02 friday means a bit late for kiwis... unelss they make it their thursday 20:56:10 apologies have to go to 'important' work meeting, have my support for doing this 20:56:20 thx davidnind! 20:56:34 thanks davidnind 20:56:41 for sure fridays are best for us, since it's already our community work day 20:56:41 we could do a 'friday' whereever 20:56:53 do a friday in your timezone 20:57:06 ok 20:57:09 so like the gbsd 20:57:13 yep 20:57:27 then we get almost 48 hours of work :) 20:57:36 august 9 too late? 20:57:43 yup 20:57:48 july 26 20:58:00 well.. might be a different date for osme... need to figure that out 20:58:32 we got 2 more minutes meeting time, I will start to look for next date and time while you ponder 20:58:37 I like July 26th 20:58:41 but I'm game for either realy 20:59:05 August 14 20:59:21 13 UTC? 20:59:48 I'll aim for july 26th preparing something this weekend 21:00:20 sounds good 21:00:42 at least writing a draft for the mailing list mail :) 21:00:43 +1 21:00:47 ok, ending soon 21:00:47 if there is a community 'official' event it's easier for us to get our bosses to let us work on it :) 21:01:02 I'll try to make it look most official then :) 21:01:09 #topic Next meeting 21:01:29 wah kohacon 21:01:37 #topic Update on KohaCon 21:01:39 sorry 21:01:45 rangi? 21:01:45 rangi is a pretty big get 21:01:46 :) 21:01:47 kohacon++ 21:01:53 i forgot to refresh the wiki page.. sorr 21:02:06 Charles_Quain: still awake too? 21:02:11 right, so the site is in softlaunch, 2020.kohacon.org it will be launch launched in a week or 2 21:02:11 Yep 21:02:21 cait - it’s only 1400 21:02:24 ;) 21:02:26 we have a venue booked, the national library of NZ 21:02:34 #info KohaCon website will be officially launched in a week or 2 21:03:03 shortly we will be asking for volunteers to be part of the programme committee 21:03:03 #info venue is the National Library of NZ 21:03:19 We have the (strangely precise) amount of €2386 left over from KohaCon19. Looking for ideas on how to use it to best advantage 21:03:24 we are going to do the 3+1+1+2 format this time 21:03:34 #info Asking volunteers on the programme committee soon 21:03:51 3 days talks, 1 day culture, 1 day workshops, 2 days working together 21:03:56 3,1,1,2? 21:04:06 ta 21:04:38 trying to get the best of both worlds the workshops from kohacon19 and the hackfest from kohacon18 :) 21:05:04 what's first, workshop day or excursion? 21:05:05 so tricky to get the balance right 21:05:07 +1 21:05:20 excursion 21:05:27 Charles_Quain: sponsorship for attending KohaCon20? 21:05:28 we are trying to be tricky 21:05:38 bag: thats exactly what i was going to suggest 21:05:40 #info format will be 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 = conference + excursion + workshops + hackfest 21:06:03 Would it be enough? 21:06:15 Charles_Quain: it could be part 21:06:22 like the program committe accepts scholar accplications 21:06:36 I reckon you have an advantage geographically for such a layout.. it's not as tempting to 'just head home early' 21:06:37 sorry for spelling :( 21:06:47 i think it would be good to use to see if can get some irish librarians to come, at least to help 21:06:57 great idea 21:07:10 I'm completely open as to what to do with it. 21:07:23 ashimema: yep, and by putting the workshop after excursion easier to get ppl to not miss it too :) 21:07:45 indeed 21:08:03 Charles_Quain: 500 euro would cover a weeks accomodation in wellington comfortably 21:08:17 How would we select a delegate? 21:08:40 I like the idea of conference money going to conference stuff.. so that ticks my boxes :) 21:08:46 if it was a supplement, it would be for someone who is already committed to go? 21:09:06 i havent fully thought this through :) 21:09:19 we could decide on that later - maybe get the committee together and they can figure that out? 21:09:23 but I was going to make it your problem to award the supplements Charles_Quain heheh 21:09:35 or at least the kohacon19 team 21:09:43 since you raised it :) 21:09:45 It does make sense to use cash from one year to support the next 21:10:02 something Todd may be helpful with bag? 21:10:06 has he any experience in such things 21:10:24 Todd would definitely be on that 21:10:35 Hello, I have to confess, I've been lurking and can't stay quiet any longer :D 21:10:50 I'd have to recuse myself from the selection process - I know them all too well! 21:10:51 some experince - but he’d do the research to make it fair 21:10:58 kathryn: finally! 21:11:11 I was thinking awards could have priority for speakers and Koha contributors 21:11:13 hehe 21:11:41 That sounds fair 21:12:01 * ashimema would go along with 'the needy who are willing/wanting to contribute' 21:12:41 yes that too 21:13:23 maybe people can think this over and we come back to that next time with more ideas? 21:13:29 yup 21:13:46 another idea, that isnt fully formed too 21:13:46 yup! 21:13:46 +1 21:13:53 #info Discussion on how to use the money raised at KohaCon19 to be continued 21:13:56 meanwhile I'm sure that money is in a safe account ;) 21:14:13 we are planning to try to get sponsorship from outside the koha support company world 21:14:16 "Resting in my account" is the phrase 21:14:28 we'd much rather you all use that money to come/send people 21:14:49 :) 21:14:59 your presence, not presents ;) 21:15:04 exactly 21:15:17 but I’d still love some Guinness 21:15:20 :) 21:15:23 feel free to #info any of that :) 21:15:24 if you send a person, you get a logo :) 21:15:44 so can still have a nice list of logos on the sponsorship page :) 21:15:46 rangi: can I info that? 21:15:59 that's a cool idea rangi 21:16:07 or #idea it 21:16:10 cait: sure why not :) 21:16:29 #idea If you send a person, you get a logo (your presence not presents) 21:16:47 anything else? 21:16:53 thats it from me 21:16:57 anything from you kathryn ? 21:17:46 probably save it for a first conference meeting 21:17:52 I have a lot of ideas and reckons 21:18:13 in short, no thanks! 21:18:13 :) 21:18:17 we are only 15 months away ;) 21:18:19 #topic Next meeting 21:18:45 short chance for veto: August 14th (second Wednesday) 13 UTC 21:19:30 #info Next meeting: 14 August 2019, 13 UTC 21:19:35 #endmeeting