14:00:56 #startmeeting General IRC meeting 20 October 2021 14:00:56 Meeting started Wed Oct 20 14:00:56 2021 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:00:56 The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_20_october_2021' 14:01:03 #topic Introductions 14:01:06 #info Tomas Cohen Arazi, Theke Solutions, Cordoba, Argentina 14:01:09 #info Marcel de Rooy, Rijksmuseum, The Netherlands 14:01:22 #info Kelly McElligott, ByWater Solutions 14:01:26 #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, Ohio, USA 14:01:30 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_20_October_2021 Today's agenda 14:01:36 Please intoduce yourself using #info! 14:01:41 #info Andrew Nugged, National Library of Finland, HELSINKI 14:01:42 #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 14:01:43 #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 14:01:50 #chair ashimema 14:01:50 Current chairs: ashimema cait 14:01:51 #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe, UK 14:02:03 #info Victor Grousset, Tuxayo Corporation, France 14:02:04 #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro, Quebec, Canada 14:02:13 #info Jonathan Druart, Mosquitos City 14:02:14 It's been a little while, so have some patience with me :) 14:02:39 #info Peter (Petro) Vashchuk, National Library of Finland, HELSINKI 14:03:29 ok moving on! 14:03:39 [off] mosquitos city lol! 14:03:51 #topic Announcements 14:04:04 Any announcements? Please just speak up now, I will info 14:04:27 I've started brewing again 14:04:34 JOubu++ 14:04:39 any recent news about the KohaCon? 14:04:43 #info Joubu has started brewing again 14:04:44 🍻 14:04:57 XD 14:05:19 tuxayo: I haven't seen much, but I thought registration was open 14:05:39 I think an invitation to attend email went out last week 14:05:40 Indeed https://kohacon2021.org/registration/ 14:05:42 it ended up in my spam 14:05:58 #info Kohacon21 registrations are open at https://kohacon2021.org/registration/ 14:06:01 mostly calling for sponsors looking at it. 14:06:10 does someone know if it#s hybrid / online only registration possible? 14:06:34 Project Koha_20.05_U18 build #204: SUCCESS in 38 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_20.05_U18/204/ 14:06:37 as I've not managed to get any feedback from them at all I think we can only assume it's in person only 14:06:58 it's unfortunate - maybe somethign to discuss for the bidding process later today 14:07:02 moving on? 14:07:17 I don't think I received the email 14:07:30 maybe only to possible sponsors? 14:07:31 it was marked as spam for me Joubu 14:07:41 and it wasn't to me personally.. it was to the company info address 14:07:41 would be good to point it to Michael for the monthly newsletter 14:07:48 #info Nick Clemens 14:07:54 I think in was in the call for candidatures, to be hybrid 14:07:55 hi kidclamp ;) 14:08:06 tuxayo: yes, but we need to make that maybe a little stronger? 14:08:15 yes! 14:08:16 yup, it was indeed tuxayo 14:08:19 good chance to improve on process 14:08:24 let's move on 14:08:25 #topic Update on releases 14:08:31 rmaints? 14:08:31 rmaints is fridolin, khall, kidclamp, wainui and tuxayo 14:08:34 personally.. as it's over xmas week here I won't be able to attend online or in person 14:08:49 #info Kyle M Hall, ByWater Solutions 14:09:04 you know who you are, any updates? 14:09:06 ah maybe 14:09:25 #info 21.11 Feature freeze is end of next week! 14:09:28 #info While we are in string freeze the strings weren't updated yet due to technical issues for the next versions 14:10:06 nothing to report for 20.05.x 14:10:32 thanks cait for noticing that and digging 14:10:44 so far only strings for 21.05 appeared for de-DE 14:10:49 is that worth pushing release a little? 14:11:03 about 500 strings 14:11:26 It's scheduled for around the 25h, is that enough? 14:11:45 no tusre how fast it will be fixed, but maybe worth another email to translators 14:11:53 Should there be new strings for other releases as well? 14:11:54 my guess is if nothing shows up they just assume it's done already 14:12:10 i am not sure, it was quite a bit for 21.05, but I am not quite done yet 14:12:26 the script is currently running, it will take several hours 14:12:41 ok, it's WIP 14:13:07 #action tuxayo send a new call for translators after the Pootle sync is finished 14:13:10 #info Translators: keep an eye out for new strings showing up tonight or tomororw 14:13:17 thx tuxayo :) 14:13:19 ok, moving on? 14:13:33 so no postponing the release? 14:13:40 when is it planned for? 14:13:47 25th might still be ok 14:13:47 the 25th 14:13:56 hm although, weekend, not sure 14:13:57 just because the 23th was a saturday 14:14:26 if we could inform them tonight i think 2 days would probably be ok 14:14:35 and then make sure it works out normally next release? 14:14:43 Project Koha_Master_D10_MDB_Latest build #701: SUCCESS in 46 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_Master_D10_MDB_Latest/701/ 14:14:45 I'll ask the RMaint if the 27th is ok 14:14:51 ok 14:14:53 so it will be a week from now 14:15:03 As it's the last release of this cycle 14:15:12 #action tuxayo to check on pushing the release dates to 27th to give translators chance to catch up 14:15:15 true 14:15:18 thanks 14:15:20 it might be the last updates for a version 14:15:24 moving on 14:15:35 #topic KohaCon22 bidding process 14:15:41 I am not sure but I might have added that one 14:15:44 I think it's already time again 14:15:50 so people get a bit of time for planning... 14:16:24 as a reference 14:16:33 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon21_Proposals KohaCon21 bidding page 14:16:55 Maybe some questions: 14:16:57 «Venue: National Library of Pakistan (Both In person and Online) » 14:17:00 good point 14:17:01 1) are we still aiming for a hybrid one 2022? 14:17:12 So it's suposed to be hybric 14:17:15 *hybrib 14:17:20 I'll ask for confirmation 14:17:25 it's uspposed to be in November too... 14:17:40 but asking woudl be good, I didn't receive a reply on Twitter 14:17:45 If they completely changed the dates who knows what else they changed. 14:18:08 Yup, I asked by email and twitter about the date change 14:18:10 neither got a response 14:18:23 harsh :( 14:19:03 I think we all hope to travel again in 2022... but shoudl we keep hybrid as an option for the bidding? 14:19:20 it enables people to attend that couldn't otherwise... so I'd like if we made a strong notion for streaming 14:19:21 isnt hybrid here to stay? 14:19:28 I think it's nice to have the hybrid option 14:19:35 +1 14:19:40 +1 14:19:40 I agree it should at least be streamed or recorded 14:19:42 but it certainly adds a challenge for the organisors 14:19:49 no, marcelr. we will we through this victoriously 14:19:50 hah 14:19:52 agreed 14:20:07 woudl someone volunteeer to put up a bidding draft? 14:20:13 (other than me preferrably?) 14:20:17 [off] tcohen always wins 14:21:01 maybe as an action for next meeting we could check over the processes page and update our gudielines? 14:21:01 https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Processes_for_KohaCons 14:21:01 The pandemic is not yet expected to be significantly over next year for worldwide vaccination levels. Maybe less of a concern for the rich world. 14:21:08 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Processes_for_KohaCons Processes for KohaCons 14:21:43 we could put something about having to inform community about major changes to bid 14:22:07 Every conference should be hybrid if it can be irrespective of pandemics. 14:22:43 My only hesitation about requiring hybrid is that it might exclude some folks who lack the resources for it. 14:22:55 But I would like to have hybrid be a requirement. 14:23:18 if we get more than one bid it could well influence the outcome 14:23:27 if oly one volunteer a little harder if it's not a requirement i guess 14:23:34 recording maybe as an alternative option? 14:23:37 Indeed including attendants that can't travel might exclude some organizer than can't take the addition workload. 14:23:39 Changes create a real problem for people planning to attend but I also remember venue availability problems for the organisers. 14:23:56 Still worth pushing for hybrid IMHO 14:24:03 thd: it hink the main issue is the lack of information 14:24:06 I wonder if we could say that we would withhold support from a conference if they are not responsive to communication after the bid has been accepted (support being publicity, mostly) 14:24:11 and that the chosen dates are such a clash with holidays 14:24:30 Yes, communication is paramount. 14:25:32 #info Discussion: withhold support from a conference if they are not responsive to communication after the bid has been accepted (support being publicity, mostly) 14:25:33 Agreed about changes... it's not really a community conference at this point to me.. the date change is huge and the lack of communication throughout doesn't really mean I think of it as koha-community at all. 14:25:44 We do not know about excessive spam prevention measures in email. Sometimes, the telephone is useful when other means are insufficient. 14:26:21 regarding hybrid approach.. I think we as a community should be able to support that even if the organising group cannot.. there are some fairly big companies here who I'm sure could contribute technologies required if needed. 14:26:36 it's a good thought 14:26:54 X sponsored the videoconferencing this year.. for example.. so I don't think it should be seen as a blocker 14:27:03 #info Discussion: hybrid/recording - optional or required? 14:27:21 we should perhaps make that clear.. if you're offering to organise the conference you don't have to do it entirely in a vacuum.. ask for help 😉 14:27:28 #idea would it be possible that companies help providing technical equipment/help for streaming if required? 14:27:39 hi sorry late 14:27:53 thx for being here so early actually :) 14:28:04 4am? 14:28:05 #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre, France 14:28:11 indeed ^^ 14:28:22 i think we had a requirement to sent a representative to IRC meetings 14:28:33 what channel/who shoudl they communicate to? 14:28:42 especially if we vote to have less general meetings 14:28:49 we don't have a council or anything you could address 14:28:54 yeah that would be expected 14:29:21 and I am still lookign for someone to put up bidding page :) 14:29:49 i can try to put up a draft... and then ask for feedback on IRC? 14:30:04 cait++ 14:30:05 #action cait to put up a bidding for KohaCon22 draft page 14:30:06 Ican copy the 2021 page if no one else can 14:30:13 If we vote to have fewer general meetings some issues may need to be raised in a developer's meeting even if that is to schedule a general meeting or kohacon meeting etc. 14:30:16 * cait immedately hands over to caroline_crazycatlady 14:30:20 lol 14:30:27 #action cait hands over to caroline_crazycatlady, but offers proof reading/help 14:30:37 moving on? 14:30:39 I'll do it right away, otherwise i'll forget 14:30:44 > the chosen dates are such a clash with holidays 14:30:45 Yes, with christian related countries. We could ask the proposal to avoid (even when changing afterwards) these dates + Chinese new year and the most relevant ones for Islam related countries. (Ramadan ?) 14:31:02 #action ALL suggestions for changes to KohaCon process page until next meeting 14:31:21 ok 14:31:42 #topic Actions from last meeting 14:31:48 #info There were no actions (that will change) 14:32:03 #topic Vote about rescheduled General IRC meetings 14:32:05 🙂 14:32:18 I am not too happy about 2 per year, but could do with less 14:32:25 which is the KohaCon process page ? 14:32:27 would be quarterly or bi-monthly be an idea? 14:32:31 i linked earlier, sec 14:32:34 when will they be ? 14:32:44 I was coming around to once a quarter 14:32:47 Project Koha_20.05_D9 build #320: SUCCESS in 1 hr 5 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_20.05_D9/320/ 14:32:47 4 per year 14:32:47 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Processes_for_KohaCons 14:32:54 with the option of adding ad-hoc ones as required 14:33:10 I think 12 per year is just too many and means none are well attended 14:33:22 timezones.. 14:33:25 i thnk with kohacon in mind 4 is minimum 14:33:39 also... elections 14:33:52 one month before release and 3 months in between? 14:33:54 if 4 per year, should we return to 2 time per meeting? so all times zones can attend? 14:34:18 good idea 14:34:21 +1 14:34:36 2 time per meeting? 14:34:47 Alternating when the meeting is 14:34:48 twice the same day at different hours? 14:34:53 oh ok 14:34:54 no 14:35:05 No, two meetings in the day? 14:35:24 #startvote How many general meeetings should we hold annually? (12, 4, 2) 14:35:24 Begin voting on: How many general meeetings should we hold annually? Valid vote options are , 12, 4, 2, . 14:35:24 Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 14:35:25 * ashimema asks the question.. what are we discussing at these meetings 14:35:46 i think 2 in a day are not really great for elections 14:35:46 the number of meetings lol 14:35:49 discuss the date and time of the next meeting 14:35:51 only for info 14:35:52 perhaps we should stick to monthly but only hold them if there's a minimum number of agenda items to cover? 14:35:53 KohaCon, Election, the number of meeting 14:35:57 I am concerned that we are excluding people but the second meeting times became so little attended that they may not have been thought worthwhile by attendees. 14:36:20 #vote 4 14:36:26 #vote 4 14:36:28 #vote 2 14:36:31 #vote 4 14:36:36 #vote 4 14:36:40 #vote 4 14:36:44 #vote 4 14:36:50 #vote abstain 14:36:50 tuxayo: abstain is not a valid option. Valid options are , 12, 4, 2, . 14:36:53 I know! 14:36:56 oh sorry 14:36:58 i forgot abstain 14:37:01 #vote 4 14:37:07 no worries :P 14:37:19 #vote 4 14:37:25 i'll give you another moment 14:37:28 #vote 4 14:37:57 #vote 4 14:38:10 closing vote.... 14:38:13 It's just that I don't know what to pick so I leave it to you folks 14:38:16 #endvote 14:38:16 Voted on "How many general meeetings should we hold annually?" Results are 14:38:16 2 (1): Joubu 14:38:16 4 (10): cait, oleonard, ashimema, marcelr, kidclamp, fridolin, tcohen, nugged, thd, kellym 14:38:35 #agreed General IRC meetings to be held quarterly / 4 times a year 14:38:41 ok, next is when 14:38:48 is one month before release early enough for team vote? 14:38:52 that would be 14:38:57 and the time zones 14:39:26 April, July, Oktober, Janury 14:40:12 i think if we mainly hold elections and use it for community decisons twice a day won't work well 14:40:23 better to maybe rotate times... and less often gives it maybe more importance 14:40:26 yes ^^" 14:40:43 ok with months? 14:40:45 April, July, October, & January sounds good to me. 14:40:50 yes 14:40:54 +1 14:40:59 Joubu: If two of four meetings are considered non-critical and very poorly attended, we may yet have two meetings per year. 14:41:27 #agreed General meetings will be held April, July, Oktober, January 14:41:30 we are getting closer 14:41:39 first Wednesday each month? 14:41:44 great 14:41:53 or is that bad for january? 14:41:57 then maybe second wednesday 14:42:04 greater 14:42:12 I prefer something other than the first Wednesday. 14:42:25 second is better 14:42:40 #agreed Date is the second Wednesday of a month 14:42:46 ... something other than the first Wednesday in genral. 14:42:48 closing in 14:42:57 times 14:43:03 i think this is too big 14:43:10 can we decide on the time for hte next meeting in Janaury? 14:43:13 and then move on from there? 14:43:22 sounds good to me 14:43:25 rotate 8 or 12 hours ? 14:43:26 we could make it a first topic 14:43:27 cait++ 14:43:48 and ask people to supply their suggestions beforehand 14:43:55 i'll set a reminder 14:44:19 #action cait to set a reminder about sending a reminder emai for next general IRC and adding drafts for things 14:44:28 what was today? 14:44:31 as a starting point? 14:44:38 14:00 UTC ok? 14:44:50 will be an hour earlier then I think here... daylight savings 14:44:53 yup 14:45:14 #agreed The January meeting will be held on 14 UTC, later meeting times to be decided 14:45:18 great 14:45:21 moving on? :) 14:45:32 yup 14:45:53 #topic Elections / Roles for 22.05 14:46:05 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roles_for_22.05 Roles for 22.05 14:46:31 ok, first thing: I'd like to vote for the whole "list" togehter, but not if there is a veto 14:46:40 we miss packgaging and translation ? 14:46:41 and if there are any questions about candidates, we should deal with that now 14:46:48 yes, missing roles we also need to discuss 14:46:49 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon22_Proposals 14:47:11 dev install in English! 14:47:14 caroline_crazycatlady++ 14:47:16 is Wainui really going to continue supporting 19.11? 14:47:25 yes 14:47:28 oops, there is a hole in the RMaint proposals. I would say Wainui can still RMaint 20.05.x and have an in-house 19.11.x if catalyst needs it. But I forgot to ask. 14:47:33 See rangi's mail from yesterday 14:47:45 yes, it's on the list 14:47:48 i don't think they offer for themselves 14:47:54 ok, I'll see 14:48:02 it' sgoing to be our first LTS possibly 14:48:35 we won't call it LTS until we have a more global discussion, but yes, that would be a plan 14:48:36 so maybe having the 'hole' is ok ? 14:48:41 ofc 14:48:45 * ashimema sees no email from chris 14:48:50 koha-devel 14:48:57 security improvements topic 14:49:11 heh 14:49:14 > so maybe having the 'hole' is ok ? 14:49:15 Right, actually that doesn't block anything technically, does it? 14:49:26 she knows the version, has everything set up, they offer to continue - makes sense for me 14:49:34 i think we should avoid working on 20.05, we can have a gap 14:49:52 ok, but then we shoudl remove it and have a discussion about LTS next dev? 14:49:53 https://www.mail-archive.com/koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org/msg12593.html 14:49:54 It kinda forbids 19.11.x => 20.05.x upgrade but hopefully it's not needed 14:49:55 or ... mailingl ist of course 14:50:03 it shoudl not 14:50:12 our database updates are idempotent for a while 14:50:17 or shoudl be 14:50:21 first ML, this email should get more attention, also about the other questions/suggestions 14:50:22 so that shoudl not hurt updates 14:51:02 #info Please check the discussion on a LTS version of Koha in the security improvements thread on koha-devel 14:51:09 > our database updates are idempotent for a while 14:51:09 if 19.11.x get a DB change next cycle, then it would work if and instance move to 20.05.x afterwards 14:51:21 But we could say that's ok 14:51:48 20.05.x is dropped, that's all 14:51:54 hm we might want to discourage jumping to 20.05.. yeah 14:52:01 but i don't think a database change is likely for now - we will see 14:52:12 * ashimema thinks if we're going LTS we should reduce the number of other stables we support 14:52:17 sure, Ubuntu for example you must jump from old LTS to new LTS 14:52:20 maybe step by step? 14:52:22 more QA people, less maintainers 14:52:35 you cant go to an instable between 14:52:48 can we postpone LTS discussion to dev meeting? 14:52:51 yes 14:53:04 #action tuxayo to add LTS to next dev meetings agenda 14:53:06 sure 14:53:09 ok 14:53:18 so, any other questions for roles/volunteers? 14:53:43 Can we continue with a team vote even though there are gaps? I don't think there would be any contention about volunteers after a vote. 14:53:57 sorry, can you rephrase? 14:53:57 Can we draft anyone now quickly for empty roles? 14:54:00 contention? 14:54:07 I added myself to CI 14:54:14 tcohen++ 14:54:19 The big gaps are tranlation manager 14:54:21 packaging team 14:54:26 irc meeting 14:54:28 same confusion for me ^^ «contention about volunteers» 14:54:38 but the first 2 are crucial 14:54:50 i think having a vote and then appointing them more iformally maybe? 14:54:51 does bernardo stop? 14:54:55 or agree to meet again in a week 14:55:04 i haven' theard about him stopping, he might just have missed the wiki page 14:55:06 'contention' - meaning 'nobody would be upset at people volunteering later.. we'd all likely vote them in' 14:55:10 he's typing his answer on WhatsApp 14:55:13 tcohen: do you know? call him? heh 14:55:14 Bernardo is always late for the role 14:55:21 yup 14:55:28 he's in 14:55:30 would be nice to have some new blood in translations 14:55:35 solved 14:55:36 but bernardo keeps it ticking along 14:55:40 Is Liz Rea currently website maintainer? 14:55:45 she is running the website 14:55:54 her infrastructure i think 14:55:59 mtj will certainly continue as packager manager 14:56:03 i've been making some updates on content 14:56:07 like listings for the support providers 14:56:08 otherwise he would have told us I think 14:56:09 ashimema: thanks for clarification. yes, no risk of contention I think. 14:56:19 ... and doing permission updates for translators 14:56:24 we have had new volunteers for website work before.. but they never managed to actually take over 14:56:25 * cait needs less hats 14:56:46 * ashimema needs less hats too 14:56:53 winter comes 14:56:57 I've also helped with website over the years and have access.. 14:57:02 we need more heads 14:57:04 I can help maintain the web site if folks can get me set up. 14:57:10 not more hats, more heads! 14:57:20 I’d be happy to help fill the role for IRC meeting facilitator 14:57:20 #info Koha needs more heads for districuting hats 14:57:25 how aobut 'website mainters' 14:57:30 I provided a big server for running community things 14:57:31 share the load and help Liz 14:57:33 jzairo++ 14:57:36 quck, sign her up! 14:57:45 that is only running the API docs right now 14:57:52 oh nice one 🙂 14:57:52 jzairo++ 14:58:02 it has 15.5GB of spare RAM 14:58:02 you'll do a much better job than i did jzairo 🙂 14:58:10 the issue with website is it also runs the manuals 14:58:27 we can shift the manuals easily enough 14:58:28 jzairo: can you add yourself to wiki or do you want us to do it? 14:58:35 I can update the wiki now! 14:58:39 thx! 14:58:41