14:04:04 #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 20 April 2022 14:04:04 Meeting started Wed Apr 20 14:04:04 2022 UTC. The chair is tuxayo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:04:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:04:04 The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_20_april_2022' 14:04:27 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_20_April_2022 Today's agenda 14:04:33 #topic Introductions 14:04:40 #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, Ohio, USA 14:04:50 #info Victor Grousset, Tuxayo sh.a., France 14:05:06 #info Fridolin Somers, BibLibre, France (Tahiti) 14:05:23 #info Andrew Fuerste-Henry, ByWater Solutions, USA 14:05:42 we are acutally installing Koha to French Polynesia University :D 14:07:28 :D 14:07:30 #info Nick Clemens, ByWaterSolutions 14:07:57 #topic Announcements 14:08:09 qa_team? 14:08:09 i think qa_team is cait, joubu, tuxayo, marcelr, kidclamp, khall, tcohen, ashimema, nugged, kohaputti, petrova 14:08:26 Any announcement that doesn't fit in other agenda items? 14:08:34 rmaints? 14:08:34 rmaints is khall, AndrewFH, wainui and tuxayo 14:08:42 thanks oleonard :) 14:09:02 Felt like too few introductions :( 14:09:20 we may wait a few minutes 14:10:01 #info Arthur Suzuki, BibLibre, France (Annecy) 14:10:34 ah, smells like melted cheese ^^ 14:10:56 ? 14:11:06 French Alps "Fondue" 14:11:11 fridolin: did you brought back hackfest cheese to Tahiti? 14:11:19 omg no 14:11:29 Quick, run back 14:11:40 its has been finished by Biblibre users ;) 14:11:58 even the big Conté 14:12:11 omg Annecy looks beautiful 14:12:11 *paddle back 14:12:21 #topic Update from the Release manager (22.05) 14:12:27 « End of cycle dates fixed » 14:12:34 even better when seen from the sky :) #paragliding 14:12:56 🤩 14:13:34 So the dates are in the calendar. What is "22.05 beta" ? 14:13:50 ah let me look 14:14:16 "Only bug fixes considered major, critical or blocker will be pushed" 14:14:25 there was no short name for this event 14:14:37 so feels like it is the béta test 14:15:03 asimema: Hello asimema. If you remember, I was trying to block the payment if the user has overdue payments. You directed me to the payment pages. I need more help. Please tell me how can I get the overdue information while on pay.pl or paycollect.pl? 14:15:05 Ok, past cycle it was named "Only > major bugfixes" 14:15:12 i mean i copies from previous cycle 14:15:40 ashimema: ^ 14:15:47 ah can be renamed 14:15:50 nikkom: We are having a meeting at the moment 14:16:05 #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City (carrier interrupt) 14:16:11 «Waiting for bug 29155» 14:16:11 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=29155 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Signed Off , Upgrade jquery version 14:16:17 fridolin: anything to add? 14:16:39 yup, what about bug 25408 ? 14:16:39 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=25408 normal, P5 - low, ---, arthur.suzuki, Signed Off , CanBookBeReserved & CanItemBeReserved should check "opacitemholds" policy 14:16:52 #info Tomas Cohen Arazi, Theke Solutions 14:16:53 it just got signed off by tuxayo (tx!) 14:17:06 liliputech: not a critical as a jquery update :P 14:17:27 oh sure, not critical! 14:17:42 (missed the "critical" information, sry) 14:17:51 «Find people for https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roles_for_22.11» 14:17:56 no pb liliputech 14:18:00 yep 14:18:09 we have not yet RMaint for stable 14:18:15 a difficult position 14:18:26 liliputech: It's the "Update from the Release manager" topic and I'm coping what Fridolin wrote in the agenda 14:18:32 ouch 14:18:46 I will talk to Biblibre to find someone (not me) 14:19:01 Oh I missed that tcohen volunteered (or was forcibly volunteered??) to be RM 14:19:06 tcohen++ 14:19:10 yeyyyyy 14:19:30 we talked about that underground in HF 14:19:40 super we have RM of course 14:20:02 I imagine Wainui will still maintain 19.11 unless Catalyst has dropped support 14:20:16 Not sure, we will see. 14:20:38 oop 14:20:40 hello 14:20:40 hi, ashimema 14:20:45 Wainui is on leave for at least two week I think. Rangi took over rmaint this month. 14:21:01 and if nobody takes 20.11 we drop support 14:21:35 ashimema: may there be someone for RMaint in PTFS ? 14:21:45 ... we have cookies ^^ 14:22:33 ashimema: and nettle cakes ;) people in annecy liked it btw ^^ 14:23:23 if it is still empty I will use ML next week 14:23:34 #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe. 14:23:38 before General meeting may 4th 14:23:41 We're mid hiring people at the minute so can't commit more this coming cycle 14:23:50 no pb 14:23:56 hopefully 23.05 I might be able to get more community time again 14:24:13 cool 14:24:14 #info Lucas Gass, ByWater Solutions 14:24:22 hi lukeg 14:24:34 thanks for proposing RMaint 21.11 14:24:44 np if you can still do some QA that's already the best help. Good luck with your hire 14:24:44 * ashimema only has one dev other than himself right now.. so we're a bit snowed under ;P 14:24:45 fridolin: anything else from you to add? 14:24:45 lukeg++ # on the QA team 14:25:08 fridolin: are we looking for rmaint 20.11 or 21.11? 14:25:22 liliputech: for stable 22.05 14:25:32 its mandatory 14:25:52 lukeg: you did chose oldstable on purpose ? not willing to be stable ? 14:25:52 ok. that one is not installed by biblibre to our partners right? 14:26:05 indeed 14:26:20 we're a .11 shop in ptfs-e these days.. so it's easier for me to commit people to .11 releases 😉 14:26:22 fridolin: I would do either 22.05 or 21.11 14:26:45 Which is actually the hardest? 14:26:46 whatever is needed 14:26:54 there's more to port to 22.05, but the backports tend to be a little easier 14:26:57 lukeg: ahhh super because stable it more work, i may take oldstable 14:26:58 lukeg on 22.05, ptfs on 21.11 14:27:10 stable should be easy at the beginning since it's close to master 14:27:15 though it kinda depends on your next RM and how bold they are at big changes early 14:27:21 But in the end of cycle it's harder 14:27:33 <.< 14:27:55 and you have to deal with dependancies a lot 14:28:04 > ptfs on 21.11 14:28:04 biblibre you mean tcohen ? 14:28:30 but its a famous place, like Prince for the RM king :D 14:28:43 * ashimema hopes so.. I hope to continue to focus on QA next cycle in what little time I'll have for community 14:29:08 sure, RMaints needs mandatory time around month releases 14:29:11 if i get dedicated time for this I wouldn't mind doing it but got to talk about it with paul / laurence first. 14:29:13 Ah ok so clearly, stable is more work that oldstable? 14:29:46 liliputech: yep super, we will mail them with a proposition 14:30:06 tuxayo: i'd say a bit more 14:30:07 fridolin: how much time would it take? approx per week? 14:30:21 around 1h / day 14:30:23 thank fridolin I note that 14:30:28 liliputech, that would be awesome 14:30:39 Lot of patches to test 14:30:44 and I could certainly support anyone who did take on an RMaint role 14:31:03 fridolin: ok. ashimema : 21.11 is interesting version for me, working on a frontend. it bring a lot of new apis 14:31:17 ashimema++ 14:31:24 * ashimema spent a little time every day on RMaint duties.. like I did an hour or two before our company morning call 14:31:46 would have to learn everything. would take some time at the beginning. 14:31:49 its best to do a little everyday and not let things stack up 14:31:52 so 5 hours a week or so.. sometimes a little more sometimes a little less 14:31:58 that's how I managed it anyways 14:32:47 'kay. that mean apply/test/push patches to the main Koha repository on the proper branch right? 14:32:55 OK lets wait new week to see if it changes 14:33:09 liliputech: i will lead you to this role, its easy ;) 14:33:36 lets continue 14:33:37 liliputech: most of the time is doing the test plan. And some is conflict resolution. 14:33:47 ok 14:34:08 it is well described https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Release_maintenance 14:34:15 great that we have good leads to fill our rmaint position :) 14:34:22 #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers 14:35:32 oldstable has been quiet this month so for oldoldstable, I didn't have much to chew on. 14:35:40 rmaints? 14:35:40 i think rmaints is khall, AndrewFH, wainui and tuxayo 14:36:26 yeah, I haven't managed to make as much time for it as I should. hoping to find time for some catchup here shortly 14:36:53 AndrewFH++ 14:36:54 * ashimema wants a time machine 14:38:03 AndrewFH: not complaining, I could QA instead :P But I'll monitor oldstable closely to not get behind. 14:38:22 * tcohen wants a second monitor to keep QAing and following the meeting without completely switching desktops 14:38:23 tuxayo++ 14:39:16 #info Wainui is on leave for a month. It started two weeks ago i think. Rangi took over rmaint this month. 14:39:33 * ashimema is QAing and watching meeting on the second monitor right now 14:39:42 -.- 14:39:45 * ashimema is finding QA slow though.. the meeting is interesting. 14:39:53 #topic Updates from the QA team 14:39:57 qa_team? 14:39:57 qa_team is cait, joubu, tuxayo, marcelr, kidclamp, khall, tcohen, ashimema, nugged, kohaputti, petrova 14:40:03 speaking of qa! 14:40:30 qa++ 14:40:42 qa++! ❤️ 14:40:47 Project Koha_21.11_U22 build #1: UNSTABLE in 1 hr 1 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_21.11_U22/1/ 14:41:56 we took abroad +1 guy and discussing this week with piloting library to help with pre-release build testing for master branch as we did for 21.11 so same I will provide for Fridoling and Jonathan as before, we just will agree with another our library to help & test build and probably we will start that already from next week 14:42:33 The technique of beginning sorting tickets by small or trivial patches to get started without fearing getting stuck works great. Thank ashimema++ for the advice. 14:42:50 pleasure 14:43:09 nugged++ 14:43:17 nugged++ 14:43:32 * ashimema has not forgotten his promises from hackfest.. just been away and stuff here so haven't got to them yet 14:44:02 ashimemta tcohen: all other things (wikies + props on ill, erm, holdings, circrules: I am preparing, just drown with onboarding for that new guy) 14:44:04 sounds familiar 14:44:08 there's plenty more space on the QA team so sign up peeps: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roles_for_22.11 14:44:14 nugged++ and to your team also and the voluntary libraries. Doing that is very valuable to have better releases. 14:44:14 Joubu++ and fridolin++ also. 14:44:25 getting people up to speed on QAing is something I am more than happy to devote time to.. just ask 14:44:25 * nugged not forget so will bring all others to the articles once /me will create 14:45:04 🙂 14:45:40 I'd love to see some other companies represented on the QA team.. InLibro perhaps for example? 14:45:56 qa++ 14:45:56 indeed 14:46:17 they do great work in patching and testig 14:46:28 indeed 14:46:57 hmm.. though looking at the numbers.. I see the NSO queue is the bottle neck right now.. 14:47:06 325 reports in there! 14:48:23 everyone test patches! 14:48:32 I'll attract those my librarians for SO as we agreed on hackfest, I will have next thursday customers meeting, so I am ready to explain them that we wait some regular contribution, so let's check how MY (our) subpart for SO goes in 4-6 weeks 14:48:35 lots of older ones 14:48:54 probably PNA 14:49:16 * ashimema really should fix the ptfs-e sandboxes 14:49:17 ... I mean - to see the numbers and trend in 4-6 weeks from us, from Finland 14:50:19 * oleonard hoped there would be more signoffs coming from librarians at the Hackfest 14:50:48 we tied up some of them with bug scary ones I'm afraid 14:51:03 severine did an awesome job of the patron searching stuff 14:51:15 oleonard: we managed to install a few koha-testing-docker on librarians PC but most of them use corporate-locked windows pcs 14:51:26 oleonard: hackfest - people spent there more experience exchange and socializing & coordinating & training each other, so it was anyway very good gathering 14:51:29 severine_q++ 14:51:54 indeed 14:52:19 nugged: I can also guide librarians to do SO. You can give them my email or IRC nick so it's doesn't only rely only on your team. 14:52:30 I'm certainly not accusing them of laziness! :) 14:53:05 tuxayo: 📝✔️ 14:53:11 ^^ 14:54:07 liliputech in the end koha-testing-docker directly on Windows didn't work well right? 14:54:09 should we arrange another bug squashing day? 14:54:10 some training might be needed though. also some patches need specific commands which are not possible to do on sandboxes 14:54:16 try and encourage a group SO fest 14:54:31 ashimema++ 14:54:44 magnuse used to be the king of arranging those 14:55:19 I think there used to be a "bug squashing day" organized by kohala before, during their meetup. dunno if they still do it 14:55:35 liliputech: the symposium? 14:55:40 yen 14:55:42 yes 14:56:20 ByWater has a Bug Squashing Event scheduled for May 3 14:56:32 That's perfect! 14:56:34 aha, excellent 14:57:03 information should be shared on the koha-devel newsletter :) 14:57:24 newsletter + mailing lists 14:57:31 (might already...) also to koha-info user group :) 14:57:34 yes 14:57:39 https://bywatersolutions.com/education/celebrate-open-source-with-this-bug-squashing-event 14:57:54 Who can add that to the community calendar? 14:57:54 bywater++ 14:58:04 that'd be wizzyrea ? 14:58:19 I can 14:58:23 tuxayo: it is already in calendar 14:58:35 oh yes.. so it is 14:58:44 I only see "Hard feature freeze" 14:58:52 Friday, May 6, 2022 14:59:31 Bug Squashing Event 14:59:31 Tuesday, 3 May⋅4:00 – 6:50pm 14:59:43 oh it's the 3 may! 14:59:45 great! 14:59:46 bug squashing will likely be on bugs not features 14:59:59 I'll start advertising it in the UK too 😉 15:00:01 hence the name "bug squashing" :P 15:00:09 "May the tree be with you" 15:00:18 XD 15:00:32 pity it'll be on US timezone... (that makes the 4'th for french people? ^^) 15:00:37 nugged: you can mention the bug squashing event at you meeting next thursday. 15:01:11 bye 15:01:24 liliputech: If some people to guide tester are available in europe hours, the bug squashing can start early. 15:01:51 tuxayo: ok yes noted 15:01:55 That doesn't change the date though? 15:02:18 11am US = 4pm UK 15:02:20 that would be cool. I'm sending a mail to french community already 15:02:22 so not too terrible for us 15:02:38 * ashimema would be happy to start early here 15:02:42 same here then I guess. 15:03:12 same, we can be here early on with european librarians 15:03:52 moving on? 15:03:57 that means if we do the afternoon on 3 may, we will be in sync with US afternoon, that's great :) 15:04:13 I meant US morning 15:06:01 Yes, we can start on our morning in the afternoon have some overlap with the Americas. 15:06:02 #topic Actions from last meeting 15:06:08 « tuxayo send ideas to have an easier time with big changes to koha-devel to get more of them and document them » 15:06:09 done 15:06:24 « tuxayo add to terminology "use restriction, not debar/debarment" and notify koha-devel in case that wasn't a good idea. » 15:06:24 done 15:06:29 #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...) 15:06:34 🙂 15:06:37 « Vote on using Vue3 for the new ERM module (as a proof of concept of the framework) https://lists.koha-community.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2022-April/046998.html » 15:06:46 +1 15:07:07 So Joubu needs a greenlight to continue the new ERM module using Vue3 15:07:37 did you hear anything from batman nugged? 15:07:43 I could not say, knowing to few on JS frameworks 15:07:52 same 15:08:18 well.. tomas and I both think we should go for it.. and I think jajm seemed happy too 15:08:21 but confident Joubu as choosen wisely 15:08:34 oleonard and kidclamp both made positive noises as well in our call at hackgest 15:08:46 so to me.. I think we should go for it.. pull the band aid off 15:08:51 ah jajm is our JS ninja so green 15:08:57 Agreed 15:09:00 jajm wasn't that sure 15:09:01 :_D 15:09:08 ashimema: «and I think jajm seemed happy too» That changed from the beginning, right? 15:09:17 we've been circling around a JS framework for years.. I don't think we'll gain anything from delaying further personally 15:09:20 even 51% sure is ok 15:09:29 jajm: around? 15:09:39 overall we agreed 15:09:45 hmm, ok 15:09:53 I can't remember details from jajm then 15:10:04 he had concerns about the extra boilerplate with no obvious gain 15:10:10 yes 15:10:22 yes, exactly what tcohen just said ;) 15:10:32 boilerplate compared to another framework.. 15:10:33 but the conversation circled around new technologies inviting new devs to contribute 15:10:40 a jajm apears :D 15:10:45 or compared to jQuery and our current way of doing things? 15:10:54 and we had paulderscheid[m] working on his project with a similar structure 15:11:05 ashimema: he somewhat away from messengers these days, still not read my message. I wasn't insistent - and this went away from focus, I will re-send email him, but we found the answer those days - it's just to know, not to switch, vue3 is came through these years a lot and svelte still "so small" in community so moving harder 15:11:19 but I will anyway bring his answer, thanks for reminder. 15:11:51 I vote +1 for adopting Vue3 as a POC, not sure about jajm's vote 15:12:58 +1 15:13:35 jajm: overall, does that looks like a gain compared to the current approach? 15:15:07 > adopting Vue3 as a POC 15:15:07 POC but still means going in Koha and be released. POC as it's only for ERM and we will see the results to tell if future developments can use Vue? 15:16:53 We can still vote here and ask also in the mailing list to have a wider reach. 15:17:12 Encapsulated module inside Koha, that will be funcional and will serve as playground and we will eventually generate guidelines for using it on other pages 15:17:36 +1 for the POC, but when it comes to move Koha as a whole that's going to be a lot of work. might introduce breaking change in graphic personnalisation or some plugins which relies on JS+DOM to insert new element on a page. 15:17:58 I assume that replacing every use of jQuery with vue.js is not intended at least not at this time. 15:18:26 thd: it is not 15:18:54 #startvote Shall Vue3 be used for the new ERM module? Yes, No, Abstain. 15:18:54 Begin voting on: Shall Vue3 be used for the new ERM module? Valid vote options are Yes, No, Abstain, . 15:18:54 Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. 15:19:08 #vote Yes 15:19:10 #vote Yes 15:19:12 #vote Yes 15:19:13 #vote Yes 15:19:13 #vote Yes 15:19:26 #vote Yes 15:20:12 #vote Abstain 15:20:32 #vote Abstain 15:20:33 I trust our JS gurus. I didn't review the code and done research so I can't say I can choose. 15:20:51 But I'm confident it will okay :) 15:20:54 🙂 15:21:18 fridolin: ? 15:21:26 khall_: it is being voted if we use Vue3 for the ERM module in Koha 15:21:42 marcelr? 15:21:42 marcelr is just amazed that next is faster than count 15:21:52 lol 15:21:54 #vote Yes 15:22:05 AndrewFH? 15:22:16 kidclamp: 15:22:17 lukeg? 15:22:17 lukeg is around now :) 15:22:24 Joubu? 15:22:24 well, Joubu is starting to brew again 15:22:27 #vote Yes 15:22:33 #vote Abstain 15:22:37 #vote Yes 15:23:07 > Joubu is starting to brew again 15:23:07 And the result was successful at the hackfest. 15:23:20 indeed 15:23:22 ^^ 15:23:29 specially the sour, tuxayo 15:23:40 letting 1min in case someone else comes up. 15:23:45 very nice sour beer 15:24:03 I don't think any stragglers will overwhelm the yes votes ;) 15:24:59 #vote Yes 15:25:25 #endvote 15:25:25 Voted on "Shall Vue3 be used for the new ERM module?" Results are 15:25:25 Yes (10): liliputech, oleonard, ashimema, khall_, kidclamp, fridolin, tcohen, nugged, thd, AndrewFH 15:25:25 Abstain (3): tuxayo, jajm, lukeg 15:25:48 (oh, I forgot to register myself :P ): 15:25:50 #info Andrew Nugged, National Library of Finland, HELSINKI 15:25:52 Can anyone also reach koha-devel about this? 15:27:20 I think my favourite was the pepporter one :) 15:27:33 #action tuxayo ask confirmation from koha-devel about using Vue3 for the new ERM module. 15:28:25 Next topic 15:28:31 gotta feed the kids... bbl 15:28:33 koha++ 15:28:34 « Make the IRC less noisy and more newcomer friendly my moving some bots outputs to another channel (#koha-logs/#koha-technical/#koha-bots) » 15:28:36 tuxayo++ 15:28:45 fridolin++ 15:28:53 good plan 15:28:59 * ashimema should join the other channel 15:29:03 - koha-jenkins: continuous integration failures or success 15:29:03 - huginn (keep part of output in main channel because they have multiple roles): new commits pushed to main/master branch 15:29:03 - alohabot: package builds 15:29:08 more humans / less bots 15:29:13 * liliputech should join more often 15:29:31 we should also update the irc page on koha-community to give instructions on how to use matrix/element as you suggested at hackfest tuxayo 15:29:59 So no issues with that? 15:29:59 Then are there more bot output to move that the above 3? 15:30:39 Any idea how to name the new channel? Ideas are #koha-logs/#koha-technical/#koha-bots 15:30:50 tuxayo: koha-dev ? 15:30:52 like ML 15:31:01 Confusing 15:31:06 Yes 15:31:20 too obvious maybe 15:31:26 Actual dev talk will still be here 15:31:29 i find it clear. that makes not too much names to recall 15:31:47 koha-bots is nice. 15:31:50 there is a matrix channel? 15:32:05 nugged: what was you preference again? 15:32:07 *your 15:32:21 koha-bots sounds good 15:32:25 people willing to check the bots message would go there, and dev talks + actual humans would sstay here 15:32:37 i'm ok with that 15:32:47 koha-bots++ 15:32:55 +1 15:32:57 koha-AI ^^ 15:33:11 bots talking to bots 15:33:17 +1 for koha-bots 15:33:20 ashimema: «give instructions on how to use matrix/element» Indeed, in addition to the web IRC chat we could add that and the future Telegram bridge that nugged mentioned. 15:33:39 domm: #koha-irc:matrix.org 15:33:40 tuxayo: first and main goal was to remove any automated messages form our discussion channel, "koha_bots", or alike 15:34:16 nop >< bots are no AI :) telegram or mattermost are easy to make with matterbridge 15:34:18 *move to "koha_bots", I mean 15:34:21 agreed 15:34:41 hmm 15:34:45 I like some bots 15:34:53 koha bots seems to have the preference. Hyphen or underscore? I don't know the IRC conventions. 15:34:56 I'd miss the bz links for example 15:35:05 i hope we're not going to lose that 15:35:07 idea was to clean up our atuomatons posting here messing with our talks into separate channel 15:35:12 ashimema: yes we would keep huginn and wahanui 15:35:30 huginn and wahanui get special ID cards that let them into the restricted area 15:35:31 oleonard: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready 15:35:31 i already had it that way, huginn. 15:35:32 yes 15:35:33 good 15:35:53 But need to find a way for huginn to not output each new master commit here 15:35:58 yes, helper bots is ok, for people communications, but all build messages, all whatever-related - to the separate channel 15:36:04 +1 15:36:09 wahanui++ 15:36:23 wahanui: coffee please 15:36:23 fridolin: no idea 15:36:30 lol 15:36:31 tea then 15:36:35 +1 15:37:31 #startvote Which channel name? koha_bots, koha-bots, something else 15:37:31