22:01:44 #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 6 April 2022 22:01:44 Meeting started Wed Apr 6 22:01:44 2022 UTC. The chair is tuxayo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 22:01:44 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 22:01:44 The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_6_april_2022' 22:02:16 #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT 22:02:20 #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_6_April_2022 Today's agenda 22:02:26 #info Hayley Pelham, Catalyst IT 22:02:27 #topic Introductions 22:02:30 #info Alex Buckley, Catalyst IT 22:02:38 #info Aleisha Amohia, Catalyst IT, Wellington NZ 22:02:51 #info Katrin Fischer, Germany 22:03:03 #info Victor Grousset, Tuxayo & Co., France 22:03:10 not sure I'll be around to the end, a little late here 22:03:12 #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre, France 22:03:17 woohoo, so much people :D 22:03:56 you're still in france fridolin ? travelling home soon? 22:04:09 hello all! 22:04:16 yep, return in 10 days 22:04:30 * fridolin enjoys cheese and wine 22:05:09 #topic Announcements 22:05:24 #info KohaCon22 website live! https://2022.kohacon.org 22:05:42 and with a nice logo too 22:05:45 koha_us++ 22:05:48 wainui is recovering from eye surgery, so I am filling in as rmaint just for the april release 22:06:16 super 22:07:00 thanks for the help, best wishes to Wainui for recovery 22:07:28 thanks tuxayo[m] , ill pass that on 22:07:29 Anything else to announce that doesn't fit the other topics of the agenda? 22:07:49 thanks rangi 22:08:16 #topic Update from the Release manager (22.05) 22:08:28 fridolin, the mic is yours 22:08:45 yey 22:08:58 hackfest was great 22:09:11 the pictures looked great! 22:09:13 so lots of passed QA 22:09:35 it looked like you al lhad a good time for sure :) 22:09:35 ^^ 22:09:40 I've discussed about end of cycle => do as usual 22:09:52 ahh yep 22:10:03 and next release => i'm not presenting for it 22:10:26 i will send email on ML about milestones for 22.05 release soon 22:11:16 there is one action I need to do : synch between DBIC and kohastructure.sql 22:12:00 + DBRevs? All this looks though 22:12:08 thanks fridolin 22:12:16 *tough 22:12:32 yep DBRevs also 22:12:54 the Recalls dev has an impact there 22:13:33 i am good 22:13:38 :) 22:13:50 #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers 22:13:52 rmaints? 22:13:52 hmmm... rmaints is khall, AndrewFH, wainui and tuxayo 22:14:33 nothing from me 22:14:42 So much happened during Hackfest, I forgot what's up about RMaint ^^ I guess all good, nothing special 22:15:11 #topic Updates from the QA team 22:15:13 qa_team? 22:15:13 i think qa_team is cait, joubu, tuxayo, marcelr, kidclamp, khall, tcohen, ashimema, nugged, kohaputti, petrova 22:15:44 I am happy that we have mostly caught up on the older bugs waiting in the queue now 22:15:54 still a lot to do and bottleneck is currenlty maybe in NSO 22:16:23 it's at almost 300 - so getting sign-offs up again would probably be good 22:16:35 and... QA team: do QA! 22:16:50 cool! can looking into doing more testing 22:17:19 same for me 22:17:21 lots of bugs waiting in there too, according to dashboard 22:17:30 I still have a lot to review on recalls but I already have some notes to open potential followups. Maybe some DB indexes are needed for example. 22:17:38 yep priority to bugfixes 22:17:50 tuxayo: feel free to add me to cc list for any recalls bugs 22:18:03 ok :) 22:18:43 moving on? 22:18:50 yes please 22:19:10 #topic Actions from last meeting 22:19:16 « fridolin checking the GUI tool for alter on AnonymousPatron x 22:19:25 *» 22:19:28 « fridolin create bug report for skipping AnonymousPatron from delete_patrons.pl » 22:19:34 « 2 above actions are obsolete, there is already a test from Bug 14708: Skip AnonymousPatron in GetBorrowersToExpunge » 22:19:34 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14708 normal, P5 - low, ---, kyle.m.hall, RESOLVED FIXED, The patron set as the anonymous patron should not be deletable 22:19:41 all good 22:19:47 #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...) 22:20:30 nothing from me here too :) 22:21:37 at hackfest we have seen use of a replacement for Selenium 22:21:48 Cypress 22:21:53 oh i would be interested in that 22:21:54 cool 22:22:15 Joubu experience in writing the tests what better than with Selenium. 22:22:38 experience as it how it felt. Not about existing knowledge 22:22:59 ah yep 22:23:40 In case you missed it : Great dev has been pushed Bug 30063 22:23:40 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=30063 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, Pushed to master , Make the main patron search use the /patrons REST API route 22:24:03 this needed ugrading some libs 22:24:04 I was able to make Joubu's test on ERM run easily on my machine. 22:24:50 oh that is good news! 22:25:47 We start building CI for Ubuntu 22.04 Jammy 22:26:05 great! 22:26:12 thats why we droppped Ubuntu 16.04 Xenial 22:26:26 Jammy is my actual OS :D 22:26:38 the beta is OK 22:27:02 I did an attempt to run cypress via koha-testing-docker but didn't get far. I was trying to use the existing docker image for cypress&browsers the wrong way it seems. I have to ask stuff in Cypress's chat or forum about how to do it right 22:28:17 It's the right meeting to see what can be learned from the recall submission. aleisha and all that followed recalls, what do you think could be done by submitters of larger patchsets such as this one and the rest of the community to make it easier? 22:29:03 *all people that followed the recalls ticket 22:29:20 less scope creep :) 22:30:02 i think thats the main one, get in the MVP (as they say in the agile world) (minimum viable product) then add to it 22:30:06 it was a much smaller patchset years ago when i started, but it was being developed for the company that sponsored it 22:30:09 How did that happen? The first ticket message what already warning against scope creep. 22:30:39 *was already warning 22:30:45 i also could've created additional bug reports for the follow-ups, but it wouldve been too hard to rebase many separate bug reports 22:31:02 yes, that would be a mess 22:31:16 tuxayo: people had different ideas of how recalls should look and couldnt agree, so the feature got blocked 22:31:32 I think tht was a part of it, managing different expectations 22:31:55 mmm some dev like patrons search via API are a large graph of bugs, it worked 22:32:22 which then scope creeps... I am not sue what can be done, breaking into smaller bits would make it easier to get the base in for sure, but that means we need to ensure it's not sitting for too long iwth a bigger tree to work through 22:32:31 exactly cait 22:32:45 i think that's waht helped with patron search 22:32:49 people sitting together working through it 22:33:45 we tried to organize something similar for Recalls - but it was hard to find time. I am really glad marcelr++ took it on 22:34:06 yes thanks marcel, it was good to not be the only person getting stuck in recalls land 22:34:17 ^^ 22:34:34 we have other big patches still stuck 22:34:38 marc holding records comes to mind 22:35:25 > could've created additional bug reports for the follow-ups 22:35:25 Also the thing is that internally you have to develop the whole thing for your clients. In the case the MVP doesn't get merged quickly you end up with having the have a minimal version and a larger version for your customers. is that an actual issue or extracting part of a dev to submit it in various ticket (and handling the change feedback) is not that bad? 22:35:27 or the work on attempting to merge tables 22:36:04 tuxayo: that's exactly what happened - developing for clients while the upstream version was blocked by scope creep and differing expectations. extracting part of a dev is really hard and messy 22:36:45 we have the same pb for bundle of items, your libraries use it already 22:37:24 sometimes the solution is not easy 22:37:35 something htat is developed specifically for one library, might not be the best of doing things 22:37:52 the idea of QA is to get eyes on things... librarian eyes too 22:38:07 I don't have a solution for it 22:38:11 ive been maintaining different versions of recalls for 3 different libraries :) 22:38:17 ouch 22:38:25 because youre right, solutions differ between libraries 22:38:37 same here 3 versions of bundle of items ^^ 22:38:56 So you submit an MVP and then it gets scope creeped (and also needs rightfull changes to be able to be generalized) while your customer's version gets scope creeped too in a diverging way. Is that something like that? 22:38:56 but now in 20.11 there all use the one proposed in Bugzilla 22:39:10 they all have the ability to configure those things that make the way they use recalls different but it would be nice if upstream could be the base we branch off from 22:40:25 i think the issue is partly scope creep, partly the community being busy with other priorities 22:42:26 we have alot of projects going on 22:42:53 it is great to see the product is alive 22:42:53 we tried to get groups together for certain projects to put more focus on things, but it didn't quit ework out yet 22:43:08 yes :) just a lot of building sites it sometimes feels like! 22:43:34 These kind of developments seem inherently deemed to be a mess to manage but we can certainly mitigate the thing. 22:43:34 - resist scope creep to ask only for necessary changes for inclusion 22:43:34 - bring the development as a topic in meetings and QA team discussion to focus on it (it seems to have helped) 22:43:34 - anything else to try to do in the future? 22:44:25 i would add to that, when bringing different expectations, make suggestions for the developer 22:44:50 I don't get it 22:44:54 same 22:44:56 blame the time 22:45:06 can you rephrase a little maybe? 22:45:09 sure! 22:46:02 i have to duck out for an in real life meeting, nice to see you all! 22:46:27 Nice to have seen you rangi o/ 22:46:36 _o/ 22:46:38 i was just meaning that sometimes too much discussion blocks development 22:47:21 I guess it's always some way of finding the middle ground? 22:47:57 So we could ask to focus discussions on concrete actions for the dev to reach an acceptable MVP? 22:48:00 so not something we can solve easily, just something to continously work on 22:48:13 yes i think that's it tuxayo 22:48:21 yeah, that makes sense 22:49:46 I have to duck out too - have a great day nz and good night! 22:49:55 And note somewhere all the potential follow ups idea so that they don't get lost and it easier to move on knowing they are somewhere? 22:50:04 good idea tuxayo 22:50:05 night cait 22:50:21 see ya cait 22:50:48 any other guideline that could help? 22:50:56 thats it frome me 22:52:37 #action tuxayo send ideas to have an easier time with big changes to koha-devel to get more of them and document them 22:53:00 So we can build on experience 22:53:19 Any other general discussion? 22:53:37 oh... Nighty night ))) 22:53:57 hi nugged :) 22:54:22 o/ tuxayo 22:54:51 Moving on to next topic 22:54:56 #topic Review of coding guidelines 22:54:59 «Terminology: use restriction, not debar/debarment, see Bug 5268 » 22:54:59 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5268 minor, PATCH-Sent (DO NOT USE), ---, nengard, CLOSED FIXED, Language Issue: Debarred 22:55:45 Is debarment still used in the UI? 22:56:58 It doesn't seem to be in the strings 22:57:16 indeed 22:57:39 Looks like in the past is was made and unofficial terminology change. 22:57:46 *an unofficial 22:59:18 Any objection on setting that in stone? 22:59:34 nope 22:59:37 Should I also ask in koha-devel to be sure? 23:00:24 i don't think it's needed but up to you! 23:02:07 #action tuxayo add to terminology "use restriction, not debar/debarment" and notify koha-devel in case that wasn't a good idea. 23:02:53 #topic Set time of next meeting 23:03:09 at 15:00 UTC as usuall 23:03:17 ok ? 23:03:44 today's time was great for us 23:03:45 Or 14:00 to compensate for daylight saving time? 23:03:55 14:00 would be great too 23:04:10 ok 23:04:54 fridolin: if you can attend from Tahiti, which one will be less terrible? 23:05:09 surely not much is terrible from Tahiti :) 23:05:10 equal, but dont worry 23:05:30 ^^ 23:05:46 aleisha: it's 14 UTC to alternate and aim for work hours for europe and the americas. So for NZ 14UTC should be in the middle of the night ^^" 23:06:11 it's 2am here in Helsinki v;) 23:07:08 you just summoned me by nick from my WC night trip ;)))) 23:07:17 ohhh kidding tuxayo do whatever is usual 23:07:19 LOL 23:07:39 nugged: I though it was the same time as france, I need to add Finland to my command with zdump to display a lot of timezones ^^ 23:08:03 I double check, ok for 14 UTC 23:08:25 And 20 april 23:08:47 just before release, great 23:09:02 ... now I meat 2am ;) 23:09:18 The release is in may right? 23:09:29 i mean stable releases 23:09:37 but fir France we are just 1 hour ahead 23:09:43 *for 23:09:52 ok fridolin 23:09:52 fridolin is RM for 22.05 23:09:58 LOL 23:10:17 #info Next meeting: 20 April 2022, 14 UTC 23:10:27 #endmeeting